Options for Fencers: Bad Refs

[swordchick]

What options does a fencer have in the event that a referee is a) poor at making calls; b) obviously biased; or c) making too many simultaneous calls because they are clearly not able to discern the action?

Especially what can a young (i.e. teen) fencer do at an open tournament where some of the adults are stacked against him/her?

I'm speaking mainly of smaller, more local tournaments where there's no real bout committee. I'm also speaking more of saber than anything else.

Help! We need advice!

[sabreur]

Score one-lighters.

Or fence somewhere else. I would be extremely loth to fence in a tournament that had the kinds of conditions you describe.

Addition: Particularly for a young fencer, the situation you describe is almost impossible. I would rather have them fence less, but in more professionally run tournaments. They might get their clocks cleaned, but they won't believe that the fencing world is composed of cheats and scoundrels, and they won't have the inclination to do the same out of self-preservation.

[seven6ty]

Fence epee.

[Katman]

Originally Posted by seven6ty

Fence epee.

We should include this or other responses like that in the original post.

"What should I do when this happens in weapon x?"

"Fence weapon y or z of course."

Score one lighters. I think there's a way to have a ref observed, but I've forgotten.

[noodle]

don't hire those refs, or let them ref. thats about it.

[Peach]

A young fencer at a small local tournament is likely to run into this problem, because the people hired to ref (or who volunteer) are not likely to be the top referees in the area. Often, they are doing it out of the "goodness of their hearts" or because they are coaches who want to provide practice tournaments for their athletes, with little regard for athletes from other clubs.

Treat tournaments like that as practice. They do not matter. Observe the referees. What is it they call wrong, and why? Is there some way you can show them what they need to see in order to call it your way? Say a referee consistently awards the light that goes on first, even if it is a counter-attack? Then change your game to make fast counter-attacks. I once won a pool that way.

Another thing to do is avoid trying to "show" something to a referee. If a referee does not call an action in your favor, DON'T DO IT AGAIN JUST TO SHOW HIM OR HER. It will be called against you again, and again, and the madder you get the more the referee will dig in. Try something else.

Yes, you can get one-light touches, which is also fun, but in sabre that is oten not a viable option.

In sabre, learning to manage referees is one of the more entertaining parts of the sport. I don't mean hollering at them--that rarely works. I mean "fencing the referee." When do you challenge a call, and why? When do you acknowledge a touch against you, and how? If a referee does not see actions you make in your opponent's end of the strip, can you move the action to the other end?

Epeeists (and Inquartata) do not accept this as part of the amusement of sabre. When epeeists have a referee who calls something incorrectly, they become incoherent with the injustice of it all (often a very intersting spectacle).

Finally, if a referee awards touches to your opponent based on reputation, as the old joke goes, go out and earn yourself a reputation.

[peet]

There is another possibility:

Perhaps the fencers and refs at the event(s) you are just talking about are accustomed to a different interpretation of ROW from yours. This can make it feel like they are "stacked against you", since they all seem to be calling it "their way", which is the opposite of your way.

Quite common at local events.

Particularly in saber, it's easy for one club to call things one way, and another club to call it another way, which when you're the "away team" can make it seem like they are favoring their fencers, when really they just honestly think their fencers are correct.

They may be right or wrong, but it's possible that they are doing it honestly, with no intent to "bias".

So to answer your question (though others already have):
Get one light
Fence the way the ref is calling it (even if you think it's "wrong")
And since it's saber:

YELL A LOT

-

-p

[FencingKitten]

I think maybe I'm reading this a little differently than other people. I would say, read the Athlete's Handbook. There are certain rights that atletes have, although learning *when* to excercise those rights is one of THE most important things a competitor (not necessarily a fencer, but a competitor) can learn.

For example, you probably want to know things like when is it appropriate to request floor/hand/side judges, versus requesting an observer, and which requests must the fencing wait for, as opposed to which requests fencing continues even without. Also, you want to read about which requests can be denied and for what reasons.

Remember that a thorough knowledge of the rules is important, especially when you want to challenge a call. If you say it was a parry and the ref says it was your opponent's beat, not challengeable, and it will be a red card for unjustified appeal if you try. But, your opponent chases you off the side of the strip, and the ref awards him a touch. Clarify what the ref is awarding for, and if it's incorrect per the rules (leaving the side is a 1 meter penalty, not a penalty touch, unless the enforcement of that meter places you behind the endline), that can be appealed.

Having a coach or more experienced fencer who is aware of these things nearby during a bout really helped me with my confidence when I was first starting. I was paying attention to my fencing, and I knew they were paying attention to the application of the rules.

Hope this helps, being on a slightly different note.

And please ignore peet's last comment, as screechy fencers are just obnoxious :P

[Allen Evans]

I love reading these posts about referees, and I love reading the answers. There are always a lot of sage comments about making one light calls, fencing to the referee, and so on. All of it is good advice, and all of it comes from knowledgeable people generously trying to help someone they don't know.

But....

Swordchick, how do you know the referee is calling it incorrectly?

Three years ago I had an argument with someone about two calls I made in a foil bout, in which he parried the attack into his leg, and then made a riposte. He was upset that he wasn't getting the riposte, and mentioned that I had been consistently calling this "incorrectly" for some time. I carefully explained to him exactly how the time in foil was parsed out and why this wasn’t his riposte. His coach had told him something different - and completely incorrect.

Please. I'm NOT implying that you don't know what you are doing, or that the referee isn't making incorrect calls...just that there might be more at work here than a bunch of no-good-nik referees ganging up on "the kids". Could this be possible? You don't speak of your own qualifications as a referee, so I am shooting in the dark, I admit.

A second point...and an example from my own division. There has been a lot of complaining from the fencers in Virginia about the level of saber refereeing at local events. It's true that - like in many divisions - Virginia's biggest weakness in refereeing is in saber. Yet, very few of the saber fencers come out to referee, even at tournaments they are ineligible to compete in. So instead of leading from the front, they push from the back - and wonder why they get growled at by the people putting on the blazer and making the calls.

If the saber referees ARE bad in your area, talk to them. No one WANTS the reputation as a bad referee. If you know more than the people currently refereeing, dropping a few hints here and there, on the side, can nudge them in the right direction.

And if you aren’t refereeing yourself, shame on you!

Allen

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

If they bother you that much, get a machine gun.

[swordchick]

Originally Posted by Allen Evans

I love reading these posts about referees, and I love reading the answers. There are always a lot of sage comments about making one light calls, fencing to the referee, and so on. All of it is good advice, and all of it comes from knowledgeable people generously trying to help someone they don't know.

But....

Swordchick, how do you know the referee is calling it incorrectly?

Three years ago I had an argument with someone about two calls I made in a foil bout, in which he parried the attack into his leg, and then made a riposte. He was upset that he wasn't getting the riposte, and mentioned that I had been consistently calling this "incorrectly" for some time. I carefully explained to him exactly how the time in foil was parsed out and why this wasn’t his riposte. His coach had told him something different - and completely incorrect.

Please. I'm NOT implying that you don't know what you are doing, or that the referee isn't making incorrect calls...just that there might be more at work here than a bunch of no-good-nik referees ganging up on "the kids". Could this be possible? You don't speak of your own qualifications as a referee, so I am shooting in the dark, I admit.

A second point...and an example from my own division. There has been a lot of complaining from the fencers in Virginia about the level of saber refereeing at local events. It's true that - like in many divisions - Virginia's biggest weakness in refereeing is in saber. Yet, very few of the saber fencers come out to referee, even at tournaments they are ineligible to compete in. So instead of leading from the front, they push from the back - and wonder why they get growled at by the people putting on the blazer and making the calls.

If the saber referees ARE bad in your area, talk to them. No one WANTS the reputation as a bad referee. If you know more than the people currently refereeing, dropping a few hints here and there, on the side, can nudge them in the right direction.

And if you aren’t refereeing yourself, shame on you!

Allen

You raise a good point, but here's the deal: Multiple people in the club acknowledge that the calls are either incorrect or, more frequently, NOT called (they're in need of a call but the ref chickens out and calls them as "simultaneous" and throws them out ... WAY too many times). Even the fencing master in the club (who observes but apparently does not enforce) remarks on this in the background. So it's not just me. And there has been animosity between this teen fencer and the ref, so I'm not sure that just talking to him (and I'm insufficiently knowledgeable, esp. in saber) will yield good results.

I'm inclined to advise the fencer just not to go to their tournaments, although it's not my preference.

So that's my little dilemma. I do appreciate everyone's advice and hopefully we can make some progress with the good thoughts and ideas we're getting from all of you.

[keropie]

I would say that most of it depends on how the fencer feels about it personally. If he can still find sufficient value in going to the event and learning to fence for a different style of ref, or figure out what the ref is seeing, or just for the exercise, or whatever, then great, keep going. If, on the other hand, he's really getting upset and not enjoying his time there, then it may not be worth his time. I mean, really, none of us make money from competing in fencing, so it had better be fun, right?

And Mr. Evans does have a very good point. The calls may well be correct (though I'll admit that way too many officials in the ROW weapons will chicken out on near-simultaneous calls and call them that way). Sometimes, however, it's not the ref chickening out, it's the fencers both making awkward or incorrect actions, and the ref being unable to really say that either fencer took advantage of the other's mistakes. Again, without seeing the fencing, the calls, etc., I can't make any real judgements on that.

It also becomes relevent if the fencer in question is working on being a competitor on a larger scale (regional, sectional, national competitions, whatever). If he (or she) is training for such events, you want to try and spend little time with bad refs (it's not so good for your game, of course).

Good luck with the dilemma. Sorry I can't help for real.

[Durando]

Originally Posted by Peach

Epeeists (and Inquartata) do not accept this as part of the amusement of sabre. When epeeists have a referee who calls something incorrectly, they become incoherent with the injustice of it all (often a very intersting spectacle).

Peach, this is because épée is truth. We're not used to managing the ongoing drama that is sabre. Our normal register is cold analysis, don't you know, which means we pass into histrionics when a referee says (in effect) "two plus two is five" or "touch comes after the halt."

I'm only half kidding. We're not used to being observed in the same fashion as the conventional weapons. This is clear every time you fence a foilist who persists on thinking that a foil beat is an épée beat or foil extension is épée extension. Really what they're thinking is "I've got priority" and technique be damned. But I'll wager that the tantrums you report are also because the margins in an épée victory are often so small.

[Peach]

My point is it's because you think épée is truth.

Your point about the margins of victory is probably very true. I always marvel at the variability of results on epee, and watching a good epee bout is a real nail-biter.

For me, in sabre, the "cold analysis" is there but it's also directed toward managing the ongoing drama that is sabre. Winning a bout involves mastering technique and also systematically mastering yourself, your opponent, and the referee. An epeeist restricts his attention to the truth of the light, where the sabre fencer considers truth to be the outcome of the call. I am under no illusion that most or even many sabre fencers (or epee fencers) feel this way.

I sometimes think epeeists are logicians--people who use the language of technique to construct proofs--while sabre fencers are rhetoricians--people who use the language of technique to construct persuasive arguments.

Originally Posted by Durando

Peach, this is because épée is truth. We're not used to managing the ongoing drama that is sabre. Our normal register is cold analysis, don't you know, which means we pass into histrionics when a referee says (in effect) "two plus two is five" or "touch comes after the halt."

I'm only half kidding. We're not used to being observed in the same fashion as the conventional weapons. This is clear every time you fence a foilist who persists on thinking that a foil beat is an épée beat or foil extension is épée extension. Really what they're thinking is "I've got priority" and technique be damned. But I'll wager that the tantrums you report are also because the margins in an épée victory are often so small.

[telkanuru]

Originally Posted by swordchick

What options does a fencer have in the event that a referee is a) poor at making calls; b) obviously biased; or c) making too many simultaneous calls because they are clearly not able to discern the action?

Especially what can a young (i.e. teen) fencer do at an open tournament where some of the adults are stacked against him/her?

I'm speaking mainly of smaller, more local tournaments where there's no real bout committee. I'm also speaking more of saber than anything else.

Help! We need advice!

To me it seems the best course of action is to assume the referee made the right call, especially if he/she is consistant in making a certain call a certain way. This is helpful both because it's very futile to fight the referee and because it brings about the wrong mentality in fencers. It is not a good default reaction to think you lost a bout to a referee, since it makes you not analyze your own fencing. I frequently seen lower-level fencers arguing with very good referees (apparently not knowing who they are, the specific case I'm thinking about had a FOC reffing) about fairly obvious calls. I also frequently see parents comforting their kids on a loss by blaming the ref, which is NOT ok for the kid's development 99% of the time.

Epee is a different beast. If a fencer is arguing in epee, it's either because they don't have a confident referee and therefore they don't believe said referee is actually capable of making the calls or a misapplication of the rules is occuring. These tend to happen much less in any given bout and therefore are much more frustrating when they occur.

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by FencingKitten

I think maybe I'm reading this a little differently than other people. I would say, read the Athlete's Handbook. There are certain rights that atletes have, although learning *when* to excercise those rights is one of THE most important things a competitor (not necessarily a fencer, but a competitor) can learn.

A small local competition with no bout committee is not a time to excercise those rights. You can try if you want; don't expect good results.

Originally Posted by FencingKitten

For example, you probably want to know things like when is it appropriate to request floor/hand/side judges, versus requesting an observer, and which requests must the fencing wait for, as opposed to which requests fencing continues even without. Also, you want to read about which requests can be denied and for what reasons.

"Sir, can I have hand judges?"
"We don't have any"
"But the athlete's handbook says..."
"En guarde"

Not to mention that it'd be pretty reasonable to refuse hand/floor/side judges in low-level sabre.

Originally Posted by FencingKitten

Remember that a thorough knowledge of the rules is important, especially when you want to challenge a call. If you say it was a parry and the ref says it was your opponent's beat, not challengeable, and it will be a red card for unjustified appeal if you try.

Yellow card; it's a group 1 offense.

Originally Posted by FencingKitten

Having a coach or more experienced fencer who is aware of these things nearby during a bout really helped me with my confidence when I was first starting. I was paying attention to my fencing, and I knew they were paying attention to the application of the rules.

I think this is a good idea, especially if the fencer has a very good knowledge of the rules and can help you discern how exactly you're being cheated.

Originally Posted by FencingKitten

And please ignore peet's last comment, as screechy fencers are just obnoxious :P

Actually, yelling on your touches can be a very good idea when fencing under indecisive refs. It doesn't need to be ridiculously loud, but sometimes letting the ref know that you got the touch will inspire him or her to actually call it.

It's worth a try.

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by Peach

Epeeists (and Inquartata)

This was the most unkindest cut of all...

Apart from that, Peach is right. In the end, the fate of the world does not rest on the result of any tournament. Life will go on after you are cheated out of a few touches by incompetence, inattention or even deliberate malice. You can still enjoy the fencing, and it makes the bouts even more valuable as practice because it forces you out of your usual game and adds difficulty by making you strive for the ultimate goal of fencing: to hit and not be hit. That is, one-light touches, as Sabreur said. Or elsewise outmaneuvering the referee.

Of course, sometimes even this is futile. I have seen referees award one-light touches to the wrong fencer. And I have been told of recent epee one-lighter which was annulled because the referee claimed a toe touch instead hit the floor...


...on a grounded strip!

[Durando]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

And I have been told of recent epee one-lighter which was annulled because the referee claimed a toe touch instead hit the floor... ...on a grounded strip!

Meh. Happens all the time. Toe touch attempts often pass to one side or the other (or else the are too deep). If the defender is standing on the lateral limit you get an off piste light. The nonvalid touch that bad refs most often miss is an infighting self-touch. Yes, this is dirtier than it sounds...

But this is terrible thread drift. I don't think there's any way to refuse a particular ref. I suppose if it is really important, this enters the realm of bout-committee diplomacy and is best handled by one's coach. We're assuming here that this is a sanctioned tournament with rated referees. If not, and you're fencing in a local competition, then that's the nature of the beast.

I'm increasingly frustrated by the crappy quality of arbitrage in my region--notably lower than that of my home region in the U.S. This may become reason enough to fence national circuit events. This is but one response--instead of taking my marbles and going national, I could always pass the arbitrage exam and then teach what