Can a fencer be excluded?

[Crazy Horse]

Can a club hosting a tournament deny entry to an individual fencer for any reason? How do clubs and/or fencers deal with individuals who show up at one of their tournaments with the intent of insulting the host club and its fencers? Can a club refuse to let someone fence at a sanctioned open event?

[Craig]

Originally Posted by Crazy Horse

Can a club refuse to let someone fence at a sanctioned open event?

It wouldn't be an open event then, would it?

If the fencer is a current member of the USFA, they register and pay their entry fee just like anyone else, then you can either let them fence, or you can refuse to let them fence and then make your tournament non-sanctioned and not give out any ratings.

If your club has issues with the fencer, then it sounds like some diplomacy is in order. Figure out what the root of the issue is and work from there - but that is best done outside of the confines of a tournament.

Craig

[whtouche]

Also if the person is being especially abusive and insulting, there's always the black card option.

[Phincer]

Originally Posted by Craig

If your club has issues with the fencer, then it sounds like some diplomacy is in order. Figure out what the root of the issue is and work from there - but that is best done outside of the confines of a tournament.

Craig

Either that or alert all club members to rise above the situation, turn the other cheek, whatever. Why let that idiot spoil YOUR fun?

[mifencer]

The USFA has banned people for being abusive (I can only think of one person's name), but this was because he was an a_s for several National events.

[Crazy Horse]

Originally Posted by whtouche

Also if the person is being especially abusive and insulting, there's always the black card option.

I thought of the black card option and wouldn't hesitate to use it, but if it is while they are off the strip or between pools and DE's, I don't think it is a cardable offense. You would think that if someone hated a club that much they wouldn't want to go to one of their tournaments.

Thanks for the input.

[larkmaj]

Originally Posted by Crazy Horse

I thought of the black card option and wouldn't hesitate to use it, but if it is while they are off the strip or between pools and DE's, I don't think it is a cardable offense. You would think that if someone hated a club that much they wouldn't want to go to one of their tournaments.

Thanks for the input.

It can be cardable even off the strip. See t.82 and 83. You can card people off the strip and eject them, and if he's bad enough you can find a good reason.

[dsapery]

Originally Posted by Crazy Horse

I thought of the black card option and wouldn't hesitate to use it, but if it is while they are off the strip or between pools and DE's, I don't think it is a cardable offense. You would think that if someone hated a club that much they wouldn't want to go to one of their tournaments.

When a fencer is not actively on the strip competing, he/she is techically a spectator. A referee or bout committee member can black card a spectator: "Any person not on strip disturbing order." (rule t.93)
If this person disturbs order on a regular basis, you can petition the USFA President to conduct disciplinary hearings. Unfortunately a division has no disciplinary power and cannot forbid a member (in good standing) from participating.

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by Crazy Horse

I thought of the black card option and wouldn't hesitate to use it, but if it is while they are off the strip or between pools and DE's, I don't think it is a cardable offense. You would think that if someone hated a club that much they wouldn't want to go to one of their tournaments.

Thanks for the input.

If you're disturbing order, it doesn't matter whether or not you're a fencer, and it doesn't matter whether or not you're on an actual strip.

So...like the two people who posted while I was writing this said...

[mifencer]

Is he being destructive? Call the police. Is he being a public nuisance? Ask him not to harrass anyone and be mature, if he continues, call the police for public disturbance / and or kick him out. Is he younger than 18? Talk with his parents, tell them your club is not latchkey or daycare. Has anyone tried to talk with him and asked him why he want this attention?

When I'm dealing someone younger (which is a lot of people now) and they're being disruptive, I try to talk to them eye to eye, mano y mano, and reason with him. Give him the soft low voice(the fatherly kind, NOT the sexy kind), "c'mon man that's not cool" talk. Try to get down to root of his crying out. And if all else fails, beat the living daylights out of him. Ok, maybe not that -- but tell me that hasn't crossed you mind.

[Wafath]

Originally Posted by Crazy Horse

I thought of the black card option and wouldn't hesitate to use it, but if it is while they are off the strip or between pools and DE's, I don't think it is a cardable offense. You would think that if someone hated a club that much they wouldn't want to go to one of their tournaments.

Well, you can card fencers for things they do off the strip (see "Flamagels"), but maybe it should be reserved for something beyond typical fencer whining.

As mentioned before, try talking with the person to find out what his deal is. Is (s)he insulting the facility, the members of the club, the coach, the reffing?

Failing the above, tell your fencers to tell him "that's nice." and then walk away. Most trouble makers are looking for an audience.

W

[Beowulfman6]

The way I see it there are two or three options. If I were faced with this situation I would consider a black card and a letter/email to the divission president about the offending person the first thing to do. If there is a major problem that involves breaking laws just call the police (or threaten to). If you are on a college campus you also have the intermediate option of calling campus security and letting them help.

[parrythis]

Be pro-active. Let the person in, but before the start of the event take them aside, look them straight in the eye and as bluntly as possible say to them, "You know you have a reputation for being an a$$. I just want to make it crystal clear to you right here and now that such behavior will not be tolerated at this event. If you choose to ignore this warning you will be asked to leave."

If the person knows in advance what is expected, they have no grounds to complain if you exercise your right to an orderly tournament.

After all, competitors that pay their good money to be at your tournament have every right to expect that they will be provided an orderly and civil environment in which to compete. It is your responsibility, as an organizer, to effectively deal with situations that would threaten that experience.

[RITFencing]

I'm not totally sure about that, parrythis, because a person with that kind of reputation is very likely to respond aggressively.

I'd let them fence but keep a close eye on them at all times and not spare any cards.

[Joe biebel]

If you own a private facility (fencing club) that runs officially sanctioned tournaments, you can have your own rules (house rules) in addition to the governing body's (the USFA in this instance) rules. If your rules provide sanctions for certain behaviors or actions, not covered by the tournament governing bodies rules, that all who enter are required to conform to, you are well within your rights to apply them and their penalties as you see fit.

If some competitor(s), coach, parent, or observer is breaking USFA rules or local laws or ordinances you have obvious remedies. Let's say that in the past you have caught someone stealing from your facility. That person is, or is not prosecuted, and you have witnesses or evidence that proves the behavior took place. I can not see a problem with banning them from your venue and still preserve the character of an "open" event. You are not required to "forgive" them or forget their previous transgressions. You don't have to let the fox back into the henhouse. An open or rented venue may be a different matter, but private property affords you a certain amount of "control". If a private facility keeps out a person(s) for failure to comply with the entities rules or standards, it is not the same as restricting the tournament entry. You can allow them to preregister, pay an entry fee, and not be allowed into your facility. It is not the Division or the USFA that is denying entry. It is restricting the entry to the private venue. Is this semantics? Yes. But why should the perpetrators have all the fun? By the way, I would return the entry fee.

I think if you are in rented facility, and the tournament organization is the fencing division, and the person in question has no warrants (that you know of) for previous behavior, you need to afford them the benefit of the doubt and start each competition for them with a "clean slate" attitude.

I have seen situations in my own division where a fencer cheated (grasped the clip on the metallic jacket to pull of at the opportune moment on the side away from the referee) purposely pushed, hit or kicked opponents and just laughed off any "sanctions" or discipline. The same person was highly suspected of theft, and had one altercation after another. No it wasn't me this time! He was given the "clean slate" at each tournament and despite letters being written with good decriptions of the behavior nothing beyond the "black cards" that he received was ever done. Perhaps the open institution of your Division or the USFA must allow a never ending supply of forgiveness, but I don't think a private institution would be forced to allow someone into their facility that has proven to be a problem.

[MikeHarm]

I've known of people who had venue bans, one of then that happened locally was for a fencer who threw her mask and it almost hit the baby of one of the parents who was watching the event.

Banning preemptively isn't fair and should result in the tourney being unsanctioned, but if they really are as bad as claimed then you don't need to worry about a chance to boot them you'll get one pretty quick.

[parrythis]

Originally Posted by RITFencing

I'm not totally sure about that, parrythis, because a person with that kind of reputation is very likely to respond aggressively.

What I forgot to mention is that if, during the pre-event laying-down-of-the-law the person offers any push-back at all, you don't argue with them, you don't debate, you don't get pulled into any kind of difference of opinion. You simply stop them and say, "If you have a problem with our rules, you are welcome to leave right now. Are there going to be any problems?" If any argument is offered, toss them out immediately.

If you want to be a nice guy, refund their entry fee before the door hits them in the butt, but that's not necessary.

I have dealt with individuals who fancy themselves better than the rest of us and exempt from the rules both in other sports and hobbies and at work. Setting behavior expectations up front and then enforcing those expectations is the best way to go. The person in charge sometimes has to show that they are, indeed, in charge or they will be taken advantage of.

Since organizing a tournament is the provision of a service (the tournament) in exchange for money (the entry fee) it is a business. In business you learn that there is such a thing as "bad business". In other words, there are some customers not worth having as customers. If this person gets "aggressive", as you say, the organizer should not avoid the opportunity to persuade them to take their business elsewhere.

[Fencing Jesus]

Originally Posted by Crazy Horse

Can a club hosting a tournament deny entry to an individual fencer for any reason? How do clubs and/or fencers deal with individuals who show up at one of their tournaments with the intent of insulting the host club and its fencers? Can a club refuse to let someone fence at a sanctioned open event?

Jesus Speaks: Whatever you do to the least of my fencers, that you do unto me. Let them fence.

[MyrddinsPrecint]

I'll admit I have a private fantasy in which a particular individual shows up to a fencing competition and is taken out back and beaten,.......... but that's rather unlikly to happen, and certainly isn't the best way to deal with conflict.

I wonder if that would end up with the competition being unsanctioned...



What would happen if there was an individual who had a restraining order against another fencer in the competition?? On the terms of many restraining orders and many local competitions, obviously they couldn't fence, and you could just call the police if they tried to. But at certain regional/national tournaments, there's more of a question.... and what would you do as an organizer?

[swordsen]

Having known several gay fencers over the years I find that a bit hard to believe but I guess it depends on where you might be. At any rate, it was wrong.