Athletes' Handbook Changes for the 2006-2007 Season

[DHCJr]

I am really messing up and I should avoid anything to do with the T rules. Thank you Oiuyt for correcting me

I also apologize to KD5MDK

[dsapery]

Originally Posted by DHCJr

Have you tried fencing a pool with 5 fencers or 8?

Does anyone have their name on their leg?

Have you worn a non-FIE uniform or mask?

I sit corrected.

But I did say "significant" difference. Name on the back or name on the leg is not a significant difference, IMHO.

But a complete change in the action taken for non-combativity is a bit more significant.

I will cede the significance in the safety of FIE clothing.

[DHCJr]

At a tournament yesterday a discussion came up on if the Athletes Handbook and the USFA rulebook contradict each other which applies. Any thoughts?

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by DHCJr

At a tournament yesterday a discussion came up on if the Athletes Handbook and the USFA rulebook contradict each other which applies. Any thoughts?

Do you have an example?

-B

[DHCJr]

This happened at J.O.'s this year. A fencer wore a bright green uniform with their name properly on the uniform. Should the fencer be allowed to wear this uniform. I will not give out the decision at J.O.'s because I want to get a discussion going. If you say the rulebook is the final authority then the uniform is allowed (M.25.3). If you say the Athletes Handbook is the final authority then the fencer can not wear the uniform (2.6).

[mfp]

Originally Posted by DHCJr

This happened at J.O.'s this year. A fencer wore a bright green uniform with their name properly on the uniform. Should the fencer be allowed to wear this uniform. I will not give out the decision at J.O.'s because I want to get a discussion going. If you say the rulebook is the final authority then the uniform is allowed (M.25.3). If you say the Athletes Handbook is the final authority then the fencer can not wear the uniform (2.6).

Also take a look at the new Operations Manual.

As for uniforms, the latest revs of the Athlete's Handbook, the USFA Rules, the Ops Manual and the info on the FOC site also happen to disagree on when names on uniforms are required.

[DHCJr]

Originally Posted by mfp

Also take a look at the new Operations Manual.

As for uniforms, the latest revs of the Athlete's Handbook, the USFA Rules, the Ops Manual and the info on the FOC site also happen to disagree on when names on uniforms are required.

Could you be more specific. Where on the FOC site and where in the Operations Manual?

[yeoldearmourer]

Originally Posted by DHCJr

. If you say the rulebook is the final authority then the uniform is allowed (M.25.3). If you say the Athletes Handbook is the final authority then the fencer can not wear the uniform (2.6).

According to the PREFACE of the Athletes Handbook it does not over ride the rules of fencing. I would said it should be allowed because by the rulebook it would be. But knowing Sam he problably made up a rule to cause the fencer to buy a new uniform. I always threated if I come out of retirement to have a pastel pink one myself

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by yeoldearmourer

But knowing Sam he problably made up a rule to cause the fencer to buy a new uniform.

That had BETTER be a joke, Loomis

[DJ Apostrophe]

Originally Posted by Purple Fencer

That had BETTER be a joke, Loomis

I think he was referring to Sam Cheris, who was the head FOC at JOs this year, I do not think he was referring to you.

-w

[yeoldearmourer]

The rule book said any color but black therefore the bright green uniform was allowed as the rulebook over rule the handbook. Yes it was Sam Cheris I was refering to to. Sam you don't have the clout to make up rules and get away withit on the spot.

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by yeoldearmourer

The rule book said any color but black therefore the bright green uniform was allowed as the rulebook over rule the handbook. Yes it was Sam Cheris I was refering to to. Sam you don't have the clout to make up rules and get away withit on the spot.

I wouldn't do that anyway....

[yeoldearmourer]

Sam I have had local armourers and O C tryed and referees to make up rules and enforce them at events and I kindly hand them a rule book and tell them to show me the rule.

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by yeoldearmourer

Sam I have had local armourers and O C tryed and referees to make up rules and enforce them at events and I kindly hand them a rule book and tell them to show me the rule.

Happened to one of our fencers at jr PCCs...a ref told him tape was not allowed on the wires inside of FOIL bellguard. WTF?

[oso97]

Originally Posted by Purple Fencer

Happened to one of our fencers at jr PCCs...a ref told him tape was not allowed on the wires inside of FOIL bellguard. WTF?

I utilize such a protocol myself when refereeing foil (although, I usually just peel off and toss aside the tape, and not give a card). Here is the justification I was taught.

Rule M.5. "The connections must be arranged so that it is impossible for the fencer to break or make contacts while fencing." This rule is not specific to either foil or epee. Nor does it specify what KIND of contacts must be avoided (more on this later).

This has been interpreted before to mean in epee that the wires cannot be covered by opaque tape, because such opaque tape could hide a switch. Clear plastic tape is okay, because it allows the referee to examine for the presence of such a switch. In foil, a switch could be hidden beneath opaque tape, allowing the wire to contact the gaurd, which, would alter the nature of the electric circuit. Clear tape would be okay.

I await the righteous flames of the armourers to burn me forever.

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by oso97

I utilize such a protocol myself when refereeing foil (although, I usually just peel off and toss aside the tape, and not give a card). Here is the justification I was taught.

Rule M.5. "The connections must be arranged so that it is impossible for the fencer to break or make contacts while fencing." This rule is not specific to either foil or epee. Nor does it specify what KIND of contacts must be avoided (more on this later).

This has been interpreted before to mean in epee that the wires cannot be covered by opaque tape, because such opaque tape could hide a switch. Clear plastic tape is okay, because it allows the referee to examine for the presence of such a switch. In foil, a switch could be hidden beneath opaque tape, allowing the wire to contact the gaurd, which, would alter the nature of the electric circuit. Clear tape would be okay.

I await the righteous flames of the armourers to burn me forever.

Yes....it's a general rule and not specific to one weapon however, that rule only works for epee....in foil you have to redirect power through your opponent's lame AND his A line to make your light fire once you break your own circuit....you can't do that unless you actually land the point....there is NO rule against tape inside the guard in foil.

If you short the wires in epee against the guard, you WILL fire the light...because it's a normally open circuit and the box is looking for a closure.

If, however, you do the same thing with a foil wire, you won;t break circuit at all...you could sit with your point on target all day long and you'll get nothing. Power would come up the wire, into the guard, into the socket bracket, and out the C line...as far as the box is concerned, nothing is happening...it's like you either hit a guard, a grounded strip, ot the point is not depressed.

Same thing happens on a sloppy armoring job where a teeeeeny bit of the wire is touching teh bracket or guard...

i HATE it when refs pull rules out of their ass...especially when they don; understand the armory side of it.

[KD5MDK]

A foil with the wire shorted to the guard would not register a light when the tip is depressed, right? Which would make for an easy way to annul a touch against you.

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by KD5MDK

A foil with the wire shorted to the guard would not register a light when the tip is depressed, right? Which would make for an easy way to annul a touch against you.

That's not too practical as the ref usually checks to make sure that the body cord is plugged in (and may become suspicious of the tape), and then he confiscates your weapon, so not only are you down a weapon, but it's another opportunity for him to find the fault while he confiscates it.

Then, even if you got away with it, if you hit it accidentally during a touch, you'd get no light.

[oso97]

Originally Posted by Purple Fencer

there is NO rule against tape inside the guard in foil.

Technically speaking, there is no rule against tape inside the guard in epee either. But its understood that this is a methodology for preventing cheating. In the absence of full weapons control, it is the responsibility of the referee to the best of his ability to ensure that the equipment passes specifications and ensure a level playing field.

Originally Posted by Purple Fencer

i HATE it when refs pull rules out of their ass...especially when they don't understand the armory side of it.

Au'contraire, I DO understand the armoury side of things. I know perfectly well what happens when you short the wire to the bell in a foil. But, this circumstance could very well be used for cheating, as KD5MDK points out, because the fencer could have his opponent's touch annulled by selectively grounding