Think Tanks

[umbrella]

The President should have put together a few think tanks. Put together a few think tanks for several issues:

1. one tank for environment - headed by Ralph Nadar - or close to it
2. one for security - by who knows - someone smart
3. one for money - I still like Greenspan - he kept us very solvent for a long time.

under environment: how to move away from dependance on oil; reforestation in the United States; restocking the water; new ways to get rid of toxic wastes;

under security: if we need to create a barrier between our nation and another nation; how best to represent it.....Could it appear better in terms of appearance- allowing people to gracefully flow into North America nicely; I really envisioned something about a mile in width alone.....using natural resources as the 'barrier'. Maybe no-one deserves a beautiful barrier, and thus an ugly one was erected.

Trees-------------------------------------------------Trees
-----brick bridge thing------gate for passage ---brick bridge thing
River--------------------------------------------------River
Trees---------------------- ---------------------------Trees
gate for passage--------brick bridge thingy------ -gate for passage


Like that. The relationships would be much nicer, sort of like going through The Statue of Liberty.


Expand the Think Tank
Including the Ivy League Universities, but also, from the South, and the New Brains on the Block - The Pacific Northwest. These people, separate from the political body.

[Phaeton]

Are you implying ralph thinks? That's a very, very dangerous idea to have.

Think tanks are pretty useless anyway. The majority of think tanks simply serve as organizations to make propoganda seem reasonable.

[needle]

Are you implying ralph thinks?

Maybe the hint was that Ralph should be locked in a tank?

[Inquartata]

Yes, in Fallujah.

[scrapinpeg]

Good lord. Can you imagine the M1A1/M1A2 version of "Unsafe At Any Speed"?

Seems like that would cause more hassle than its worth. Just let the guy stay in his zone of minor celebrity, where he isn't bothering anyone.

[RoninX]

Think tanks are pretty useless anyway. The majority of think tanks simply serve as organizations to make propoganda seem reasonable.

So... it seems to me like the president already has plenty of these. They have been very effective for him for the most part. They just haven't been feeding us the kind of propoganda that umbrella (or myself) can get behind.

[pointinline]

Right, we're not getting the best message. Government is too huge and the further down it trickles, the more the message gets garbled. It's unfortunate, but sometimes local gov'ts corrupt larger schemes.

[RoninX]

Right, we're not getting the best message. Government is too huge and the further down it trickles, the more the message gets garbled. It's unfortunate, but sometimes local gov'ts corrupt larger schemes.

I would argue that in fact it is the larger "schemes" that corrupt local governance... but I think I see your point.

[Beowulfman6]

under environment: how to move away from dependance on oil; reforestation in the United States; restocking the water; new ways to get rid of toxic wastes;

Alrigh, this is a little off topic, but the above are hardly the most pressing environmental issues.

Moving away from dependance on oil is a good idea, but coal is much worse for the environment- we need to reduce our use of all fossil fuels. There are two very good ways of doing this:
1) Become more energy effiecint- we waste a ton of energy.
2) Increase the use of renuable, greener energy soursces such as solar and wind power.

Reforestation? How about we be a little more general and say ecological preservation and restoration.

Restocking the water?!? Stocking streams with fish for tourists to catch is not natural! How about we restore the ability of the waterways to support natural populations of native species.

Toxic wastes are a problem. We make tons of waste, not all of it very friendly. We can reduce a lot of this by reduceing consumption and recycling.

If I had to make a list, just off the top of my head, of the most pressing environmental concerns facing the US it would be something like this.

Global Climate Change
Loss of biodiversity (human coused extinctions)
Air polution
Water polution
Loss of habitat/ecosystems (can lead to loss of biodiversity)
Urban Sprawl


I just wanted to throw out my 2 cents since this is may field. As to think tanks, what do they realy do anyway? I'm sure Bush has plenty of top minds at his disposal, but all of the information in the world can't make somene act wisely.

[umbrella]

I would have to agree, coal is by far the worst type of fuel to use and especially because there are too many accidents associated with coal mining. But other than that, you have a point. By restocking waters, implys that the waters were depleated in the first place, so, I am thinking that waters in general may need to be repleated. Or, just not over-fished, but that s another issue. But I don't see your response as being particularily off topic, that is what the thread is for, to talk about current events. Urban sprawl is a good observation.

keep searching for a .....good......friend.....you sound like someone I know pretty well, but I'm not positive. Did you like the epees I dropped off?

[Beowulfman6]

keep searching for a .....good......friend.....you sound like someone I know pretty well, but I'm not positive. Did you like the epees I dropped off?

??? I do not think I am who you think I am, although I could be mistaked.

Just another comment on coal. One of the biggest problems with coal is that it emits large quantities of SO2 (sulfur dioxide) which not only harms the environment and reates smog and acid rain, but is also very bad for human health. Coal mining underground is very dangerous, that is why strip mining is often prefered by the coal industry (ie. mountaintop removal). Needless to say this is bad for the environment, and people around here like their mountains.

[umbrella]

Another astute observation posted by a fencer. Hey, la. la. la. la.!!!

Why oh why won't they put all of us in power? I don't understand any of it.

As all fencers are well acquainted with the piste; we should be the experts in the field. I don't know what it is about fencers, more thinking on the feet, more aggressive, able to tough it out against one opponent rather than the team thing, but then we can come together as a united group and talk about things like politics. Welp! [ouch]

Well, another round-robin of discussion centered on the energy thing. We all know the problem: we don't want to cut off ties with our Middle Eastern nations, at at the same time, we are well aware of the problems associated with fossil fuels.

Clean energy has been defined already: wind and sun. The rest should be used for industry.

[umbrella]

Well, maybe it is too late for them to bring in a think tank. The last pres. to think of it was JFK.

[Beowulfman6]

Well, another round-robin of discussion centered on the energy thing. We all know the problem: we don't want to cut off ties with our Middle Eastern nations, at at the same time, we are well aware of the problems associated with fossil fuels.

Clean energy has been defined already: wind and sun. The rest should be used for industry.

The whole middle east oil thing just throws a huge twist on an energy problem already compounded with environmental problmes. I think a lot of people could agree that we should move away from foreign oil, but then what do we use? For many conservatives the solution is to decrease our dependance on oil (which the US doesn't have much of) by increasing our use of coal (which we have loads of right here in the US). As mentioned above, coal is bad for the environment and human health and while abundant at present is ultimately no more sustainable than oil.

So if we want to move away from oil where do we go? Solar and Wind are ideal in many ways becouse they are 0 emissions and will last for all intents and purposes forever. Realisticaly though these two soursces could not supply all of the US demand at present. Natural gas is much cleaner than oil or coal and is in many ways a better option.

Ultimately I think the solution is to decrease our current demand by becoming more efficient in everything we do and using "green" power as much as possible to decrease our use of coal as much as possible.


As for politicians, I think the fundamental problem is that good honest people don't want to get into that mess for any number of reasons, and public apathy about voting (or being informed voters). What this nation needs is a LEADER! One that can bridge the gap and unite the country- someone a little more moderate.

[umbrella]

I think in your effort to keep oil interests there in the middle east are admirable, but see-throughable. We're just used to buying from them, so here's additional ideas that we could mull over for a few months before we fly into them:
1. offer those people more money per barrel, so they have something to go on.
2. we sort of built a lot of citiies over Arizona,Nevada, New Mexico, and Texas and then swear we don't have oil. It's there, but it's under a bunch of buildings.
3. check out some other places, but not Alaska which is too fragile. I have a feeling there's oil in Australia, Greece,the big island of hawaii and maybe - Mexico.
4. Crude oil is refined in stages according to where it will be used: so maybe we use crude oil in Industry. While private homes; apartment buildings; business offices and so forth might make the switch to electric and solar in combinations - thereby stretching resources.

[umbrella]

I think in your effort to keep oil interests there in the middle east are admirable, but see-throughable. We're just used to buying from them, so here's additional ideas that we could mull over for a few months before we fly into them:
1. offer those people more money per barrel, so they have something to go on.
2. we sort of built a lot of citiies over Arizona,Nevada, New Mexico, and Texas and then swear we don't have oil. It's there, but it's under a bunch of buildings.
3. check out some other places, but not Alaska which is too fragile. I have a feeling there's oil in Australia, Greece,the big island of hawaii and maybe - Mexico.
4. Crude oil is refined in stages according to where it will be used: so maybe we use crude oil in Industry. While private homes; apartment buildings; business offices and so forth might make the switch to electric and solar in combinations - thereby stretching resources.
5. Also oil is used to make plastic products; makeup and other items that we really could use other resources.

[umbrella]

I think in your effort to keep oil interests there in the middle east are admirable, but see-throughable. We're just used to buying from them, so here's additional ideas that we could mull over for a few months before we fly into them:
1. offer those people more money per barrel, so they have something to go on.
2. we sort of built a lot of citiies over Arizona,Nevada, New Mexico, and Texas and then swear we don't have oil. It's there, but it's under a bunch of buildings.
3. check out some other places, but not Alaska which is too fragile. I have a feeling there's oil in Australia, Greece,the big island of hawaii and maybe - Mexico.
4. Crude oil is refined in stages according to where it will be used: so maybe we use crude oil in Industry. While private homes; apartment buildings; business offices and so forth might make the switch to electric and solar in combinations - thereby stretching resources.
5. Also oil is used to make plastic products; makeup and other items that we really could use other resources.

[Inquartata]

So if we want to move away from oil where do we go?

Nuclear.

Solar and Wind are ideal in many ways becouse they are 0 emissions and will last for all intents and purposes forever.

They also still require oil. Solar panels especially use a lot of it in their manufacture. Wind turbines must be lubricated, meaning oil again. Making insulation for wire, transformers, and other components also use oil. Smelting the metal for wind towers cannot be done with wind or solar power. Then there's transportation of all these materials, and assembly...

Natural gas is much cleaner than oil or coal and is in many ways a better option.

Perhaps, but it's mostly methane, itself a greenhouse gas, as oil and coal are not...

[Beowulfman6]

Nuclear.

They also still require oil. Solar panels especially use a lot of it in their manufacture. Wind turbines must be lubricated, meaning oil again. Making insulation for wire, transformers, and other components also use oil. Smelting the metal for wind towers cannot be done with wind or solar power. Then there's transportation of all these materials, and assembly...

Perhaps, but it's mostly methane, itself a greenhouse gas, as oil and coal are not...

Nuclear is not a good option. In the 70's everyone thought that nuclear power was going to save the world, but it turned out to be by far the most expensive power sourse available. No more nuclear power plants are being built in the US becouse they are so expensive and we will gradualy move away from it as old plants go off-line. There is also the small problem of the radioactive waste- how would you like to have that in your back yard?

Yes, all power soursces require investment of energy to get a useable product. Petrolium requires refineing- that isn't cheap. The costs of wind or solar power don't outweigh the benefits and whatever oil is used for lubrication is minescule compared to straight burning of the stuff.

Natural gas has its drwbacks to. It does emit greenhouse gasses when burned, but like I said- it is still much cleaner burning than coal.

Your arguments are true for hydrogen fuel cell technology. These do not make any power, but are simply very efficient means of storing energy that ultimately must come from some other soursce.

[Inquartata]

Natural gas doesn't emit greehouse gases. It IS a greenhouse gas. It need not be burned, it need only escape.