Dedicated But Lost

[Silvestris]

I'm a little confused about what other fencers do to improve. I started fencing two years ago, but it was sort of a recreational thing and now I want to take fencing to the next level and do all I can to improve. Currently I'm going to my club three times a week for a advanced and a beginner class.

Perhaps I didn't phrase the question correctly, but I would really, really like to do all I can to improve. I know there are options out there like camps and seminars and whatnot, but I would like to know what the people of Fencing.net have to say.

So far I think it'd be something along the lines of cross training (in something, I'm not sure what would be best for training), private lessons, and further classes? If you guys have any suggestions, please, by all means, post.

Thank you! (Sorry if the question is a bit vague)

[Peach]

I do the following things to improve:
Drill (which you may already do in your classes), including footwork, handwork, and partner work
Lessons (For one reason or another, I take two a week, though that's not necessary)
Club bouting (trying out what I have learned in the lessons, setting myself tasks, practicing skills)
Watching videos of fencing--top-quality fencing.
Cross training (weight, aerobic, core conditioning)
Local tournaments (for practice). I stay and watch when I'm eliminated, and I talk to coaches, referees, and other fencers.

[Sciurus-Rex]

It's actually a pretty good question. I wonder how many people don't even think about asking it.

Commitment, first. Or at least the hint of commitment, as your behavior over time will confirm that you truly want what you say you want. ... Sounds like you've got that.

One of the big differences between a leisure fencer and a competitive fencer is that the former just doesn't care about improving. Once you care, you're effectively declaring a competition with yourself -- i.e. becoming better than the old you. So welcome to the world of competitive fencing!

You should find that your mental focus is increasing so that you can and want to drill, as Peach pointed out. So that you have the patience to do the same thing over and over and over again while you're paying attention to how and why you're doing what you're doing. Not just mindless repetition, but actually trying to refine what you've learned for practical application. That's going to come from desire and commitment.

I hope you have a decent coach (or three!) on staff so that someone with skill can help ensure what you're practicing is beneficial. Ask lots of questions. Yes, try some personal lessons. At this stage in your improvement, work on developing stamina and core body strength so that you have what you need to make it through lessons and long bouts and longer periods of self-practice.

These are just your first steps. Once you're into the transition from leisure to competitive, inertia will be a big help in figuring out what else you need to do. Hanging around here every so often will give you more ideas.

[Fechter1]

A few things I'd like to add to Peach's almost complete response:

It may take time. Set goals for yourself in the following categories: within the next two weeks (e.g. improve fitness, apply new technique, etc); within the next two months (e.g. improve tournament finishes, measurement is up to you); within the next year. These goals should include easy to achieve, moderately difficult, and one or two nigh-impossible goals (so that you don't run out of goals in case you proceed faster then you expected). These are your basic motivational tools. Let your coach(es) know what these are as well. (They'll be able to help you formulate them as well.)

Video: If you can, have someone tape your bouts, preferably in tournaments. That you can compare to the more advanced fencers. Might also reveal some holes in your own game, once you learn what to look for.

And to recap Peach: footwork, lessons, drills, practice bouts, and tournaments.
For cross-training I would recommend Tae-Kwon-Do (personal choice/experience). Heavy on the legs, helped me develop balance and movement.

And like S-Rex said, looks like you've already taken the most important step, making the commitment.

Go get 'em

[eac]

What the previous responders have said is generally true, although I would opine that non-footwork drills are in general BS, having done them for five years and improved not at all because of them, despite trying my hardest in them.

However, what they have said is to some degree missing the point. There is one thing that CAN, if it's available, take care of all these things for you without you having to come up with them all yourself or ask anonymous internet personae for advice: a serious competitive club that produces successful fencers on a regular basis. These clubs often take over your training regimen, and, since they have results, you can trust them to do it right.

Just by sheer probability, I would guess that you are not fencing at such a club right now, since there are not incredibly many of them in the USA.
It is easy to find out, however, whether a given club is one of these: go to www.international.usfencing.org, go to points standings, look up your weapon, gender, and age, and see if that club has any fencers on the corresponding points lists. Also look "up" the scale-- if you are a Cadet (16 and under), look "up" at Junior and Div I to see if that club has fencers at those levels as well.

If your current club is not on any points standings, it is unlikely (though possible, given the determination and skill of the coach) that it will soon reach them in numbers. Look around for clubs in your area, figure out who their top fencers are (e.g. by local tournament results), and look said top fencers up in the points standings. Don't be afraid of switching.

[fatfencer]

The legs are absolutely the most imnportant thing to improving your game.

Things to focus on:

a) complete conscious and unconscious control over them in fencing actions. Does your brain still have trouble in mid action deciding quickly which leg to move in which direction...does your on guard get wider and wider?

b) plyometric strength= explosive lunges. Do plyometric drills and isometric knee strengthening actions. Focus a little more, like 60/40 on the back leg. Do not roll you ankle on the lunge


c) technical aspects of footwork. Practice does NOT make perfect. Practice makes permanent. Perfect practice makes perfect. Try and spend a few strips going backwards assuring yourself of perfect practice. go very slow. VERRRRY slow and see how many jerky, disruptive motions your body wants to make on a step back. do the same going forward.

Doing this kind of stuff will put you in great position to use strategy and tactics to your advantage. No legs=no skill.

FF

[occasionalfencer]

For cross training, I think it is very important to do something that uses both sides of your body equally. Don't, for instance, do tennis, played with your fencing arm, as cross training.

[dramamine]

IMO the best things you can are:

1) By a longshot, footwork. Sitting low, small steps, explosive, long lunges with lots of push from the back leg. Lots of direction change and focus on relaxation in the upper body.

2) Sprints+Plyometrics. Sprint starts especially, and a variety of bounding and long jumps. Medicine ball throwing as well.

3) General strength work in the gym: squats, deadlifts, cleans, lunges, dips, chinups, and grip work.

4) Cardio - self explanatory, I'd say intervals are much better than distance running.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Do yourself a favor, and get a coach.

And also, go buy a copy of Tao of Jeet Kune Do, getcha some wisdom.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Originally Posted by fatfencer

No legs=no skill.

Tell that to the wheelchair fencers.

[PeterGustafsson]

Hi!


Silvestris - in order to produce more specific answers, I think you should provide the following info:
1. Your age bracket
2. Your weapon(s)
3. Your rating
4. Your best competitive result
5. Your region
6. How many fencing clubs are available within reasonable driving distance
7. Number of coaches in your club
8. Number of fencers in your club with the same primary weapon as you
9. Your gender
10. Major sports-related injury, if any
11. How do you rate your skills in the various areas: cardiovascular ability, technical form, speed, tactical choices, technical diversity? Rate them fom your personally strongest point till your worst.

I am fully aware that all this info can quite possibly identify you, so you might want to withhold some answers for your privacy. However, all info should make it easier for the respondents to give tips which are specific for you.


Have a nice time!

Peter Gustafsson

[Silvestris]

In respose to Peter's post:

Age: 16, Cadet
Weapon: Foil
Rating: Unrated
State: Illinois
There are about 3 clubs I know of in driving distance
Five coaches in our club
About twenty foils in our club, but they're mostly adult recreationalists.
Female
No injuries
Strongest-Weakest: Technical form, tactical choices, technical diversity, speed, cardiovascular ability


Phew, this seems to be a popular thread! I just imagined the response would be "Wrong part of the forum, you noob." Thanks for all the suggestions so far guys, they really help!

[PeterGustafsson]

Hi!


So, there we have some more to go on. My (this coming from a 40yr-old male epeeist, YMMV) suggestion:

With such a large number of coaches, find the one which is best at cardio training. A combined regimen of long distance running and wind sprints should be good for you. DO consult your health care provider about what is good or bad for exactly your knees - knee injury, especially among women, can be devastating.

Do compete in the local competitions - with 3 clubs within driving distance there should be reasonable number of local comps for you to hone your skills. Consider training at the other clubs for more exposure to foil cadets which are somewhat better than you.

At 16, you may or (more likely) may not have reached your full length. Ask your mother when she reached full length, and use that info when you plan your strength/cardio training so that you avoid injuries specific to the still-growing body.


Have a nice time!

Peter Gustafsson

[D'Art]

In your last post, you said that two of your weakest parts of the game were speed and technical diversity.

First off, at the top level, yes, speed is very important, but possibly more important are timing and change of pace (people like dknj and Allen Evans may want to wade in here....). All this is encompassed by footwork - improve this as much as humanly possible. There are others on the boards who are more knowledgable than me on how to achieve this.

Technical diversity. You mention that you thought you were quite technically proficient, and fairly good tactically, but technical diversity wasn't quite so good - why is this? If you can answer this, you're already halfway towards figuring out what you need. The other 50% is blood, sweat and tears.

If you have any other questions, don't hesitate to ask, though you may have to take some of the answers with a pinch of salt

The people on the boards who have "fencing expert" under their username when they post, do so for a reason. Make use of what they have to say.

[Ordway]

If your current club is mostly recreational fencers, I'd look for a new club - not that there's anything wrong with recreational fencers, but it's a different mindset with different goals. One of the nice things about my club is that we all can offer each other advice and critiques.

One of the best ways to find a strong club is to go to a local or regional tournament and observe where the best fencers are from and which club has the most depth. (IE you don't want a club with just one brilliant fencer and the rest beginners; better would be a club with no one totally brilliant but lots of them very strong). Talk to some of those fencers and see what they say about their club - and what they're like. (IE are these people you'll enjoy spending time with, training? Do they seem nice?) You want a club where people enjoy helping each other improve.

Don't worry about speed. Speed with come. Focusing on trying to get faster just makes other things worse. (One of the first things my coach did was to get me to SLOW DOWN.)

At tournaments, chat with other fencers and get to know them, even the ones from different clubs. Fencers are nice people on the whole, and very helpful. Back when I was in Maryland, Peach became one of my role models as a fencer, and she very frequently gave me lots of good advice, which definitely made a positive difference in my attitude and ability as a fencer!

[edew]

Some basic misconceptions: speed is essential and technical diversity is great.

Of course, having the ability to go fast is important and is pretty much essential. People moving like sloths are not likely to score too many points. Technical diversity is even less important.

The most important need is timing, from my personal experience. To that end, speed is a requirement, because you need the speed (as in acceleration, not in velocity: the second derivative is important, not so much the first (or zeroth) derivative(s)) to achieve your objectives.

Timing is the ability to execute the particular movement when you have to execute it. That's basically fencing in a nutshell. You need to learn the proper response to a particular stimulation, of course. Then, you need to get the timing right so that everything hits on all cylinders.

Once you get your timing right, you can literally coast your way to the finals using nothing more than two actions: attack simple or with simple dissengage, and parry riposte simple or with disengage. Really. If you don't have leg speed, you would need more disengage, but really I've seen some slow fencers my time who happen to never miss a parry or fall short with a riposte.

(Alex Simmons from Sonoma Fencing Academy is always super slow. I always thought that he won't be able to win the big ones because he couldn't move fast enough, even with his parries. But, he manages to win his bouts and most importantly, because he's not moving fast, he isn't huffing and puffing after a bout.)

If you are doing the timing right, it means you're at the right distance, and that means you can reach your opponent. If you're at the wrong distance, you won't reach your opponent. If you time it right, you will be at the right distance and can make the simplest action to hit. Thus, you really need one or two actions to successfully score.

[JackSparrow]

Originally Posted by edew

Some basic misconceptions: speed is essential

I would add that it is more important to be able to change tempo rather than being uniformally quick. Its a good idea to both practice executing moves at different speeds, and practice starting your actions slowly and accelerating through them. The control and change of rhythm is an extremely effective means of gaining the element of suprise.

[lecrivain06]

Silvestris-

I want to correct something that some people may be telling you to do.

Don't cross train. Not yet.

As an unrated 16 year old foilist, your objective is to do things fencing related things right now. And while you think your dedication is very strong, let me tell you, there's nothign worse for your morale then putting in extra effort and not getting the proper return. It gives you a false preception of improvement, yet in reality, probably wont help your fencing right now. And that is a good first step to wanting to nolonger fence.

Have you ever had a test in school, where the teacher teaches on a couple things, you study them, and then on the day of the test, guess what's NOT on that test? Yeah, you know the feeling. We've all wanted to shoot that teacher in the head, and that's how you'll feel if you do plyometrics/running/weightlifting and then lose all your pool bouts at your first competition.

[Peach]

Everybody in this thread is giving you a good deal of advice, some of it wrong-headed, much of it good in moderation. Use it all as fertilizer .

Cross-training, staying at your present club, adding to your technical repertoire, increasing your speed, and hand-action drills can be useful in moderation. So can focusing on sport-specific exercise, changing clubs, honing a specific and limited set of technical skills, working on tempo, and focusing on footwork.

Now that you know all this, have a talk with your coaches and ask for their suggestions. They know you better than we do. Remember that most of what we say is based on our own experience or on what our coaches tell us, and is often the result of learning from experience (often from our mistakes) and making a series of adjustments to fit our own circumstances. Go out and make your own mistakes.

[Sciurus-Rex]

Speed without technical skill is nothing more than speed -- sloppy, achieving nothing, causing problems. You need to refine technique without rushing so that when you need to employ an action quickly, at the proper moment, the brain-to-muscle signals can do *precisely* what needs to be done. Don't dash through your training just because you think faster is better.

And to back up at least part of what EDew said earlier: If you watch (closely observe and analyze) some upper-level fencers in serious bouts, you'll start to notice that they have a very small suite of techniques or technical skills they prefer. Yeah, they'll dress up their actions with other preps and interruptions, but ultimately a good fencer tends to do one thing really well and learns to create situations so that he can do that one thing.