Foil: retreating when you parry

[mrbiggs]

When should a foilist retreat when he parries?

I kind of suspect the answer is "when you need to," but I was wondering if anyone had some other thoughts.

[Jason]

When you need to.

[Jason]

When parrying, you want to create a distance that allows you to safely protect yourself as well as facilitates your ability to easily riposte.


So, as I said, "When you need to."

[Goldgar]

When should a foilist retreat when he parries?

Generally, if you're going to move backward and parry, you would do better to retreat, then parry. Parrying as you retreat rarely allows you to make a fast, simple riposte. If you have to lunge to hit your riposte, because you were still moving backward when you parried, then you've given your opponent more time to cope with the riposte.

On the other hand, if your opponent is too close when he launches his attack, you may need to retreat with the parry, just to get enough time to execute the parry. In this case, the close distance and rapid closing of the opponent still allow the quick riposte, so it's a wash.

It's a completely different question whether you should always attempt to parry at optimum technical distance. As I was saying in the "Making a last stand" thread, the technical benefits of being at the perfect parry-riposte distance may be offset by the tactical benefits of closing the distance with a parry-riposte, thus parrying at an unexpected moment (hopefully) and using the double closing to putting the riposte on the target very quickly. If you always retreat to parry you're probably better off than if you always close in to parry, but neither alone is as effective as varying your timing and distance.

[Mr Epee]

Sometimes the foilist should step forward when he parries.

[jBirch]

Generally, you want to retreat when the opponent is lunging and you want to hold your ground when they are merely advancing.

Some coaches like the whole "retreat every time you parry" on the theory that you're already in trouble to be parrying in the first place, so you should instill in the fencer the reflex to "gettawaygo!" I find this results in fencers who have trouble landing the riposte and can't work the parry correctly.

Personally, I like the student to learn all three distance changes on the parry: advance, static, and retreat as well as duck/passata soto. I like to progress from static to retreat to advance to ducking on the theory that the beginner student is likely to retreat and parry without riposting thinking they are safe and that they have stopped their opponent. If we teach them to hold their ground, I find them more likely to riposte.

After that, I teach parry, riposte w/rear extension, then parry-riposte retreat with line, then "turn the corner" drills like sabre. When they're comfortable doing these things and can hold their distance well, I introduce infighting and the concept of advancing with a parry. Finally, we get into the ducking/esquive kind of motions with the parry and/or opposition engagements.

To those students that understand nuance, you can teach:

Parry/Riposte/Retreat
Parry/Retreat/Riposte
Retreat/Parry/Riposte

which really opens up the question of "always retreat with a parry".

I'm not a fan of any fencing pedagogy that says "always do X". It misses the point, IMHO.

Hope this helps.

- James

[daeceg]

Generally, using a circle parry seems to require more space to be effective, so give yourself room. (just from my experience)

[mrbiggs]

Some of these posts were along the lines I was pondering, but they were all very in depth and helpful. Thank you all very much.

[Grasshopper]

The answer my friend, is blowing in the tactical wheel, the answer is blowing in the tactical wheel.

[muaddib]

I think it's best to teach beginners to always retreat then parry reposte. At least the back foot must be planted on the retreat, then make the parry, if you get the blade, your foot is set to lunge/attack, if you miss the blade, retreat again, etc. The retreat buys you time to parry, and makes the reposte easier with the right distance.

Now experienced fencers should parry at all distances and change timings to what needs to be done. Variation and surprise (as stated above) works best, I find. Make early beat parries sometimes, and late strong parries sometimes.

[chefencer]

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzeegyz6/id3.html
Learning from Victor Bukov

David Littell

Parries are executed with the point and little hand movement. The key to making a small hand action is parrying from the proper distance. From a lunge distance, as the attacker lunges, the defender is to execute a half retreat. This is a movement with the back foot, leaving the front foot stable. When the opponent lunges, this half retreat gets the defender out of the range of the attack. Victor demonstrated that the parry only has to be large when the distance is too close. The parry is secondary to the distance, and every attack should land short. The parry is executed merely to make sure that the director gives the right of way to the defender. He usually worked with beat parries, which were made at the same time as the half retreat. A direct riposte could be made from that position, with a lunge if necessary. Victor required all three actions—the half retreat, parry, riposte—to be executed in one tempo.

As I began to master this technique, I developed a speed that I had never had and found myself scoring more touches on simple parry, direct riposte. One more important element is that on the half retreat, the defender extends the arm slightly to parry, so that as the body retreats, the foil essentially stays in the same place. This leaves the defender's point close to the attacker's target, facilitating the direct riposte.

[parrythis]

When should a foilist retreat when he parries?

I kind of suspect the answer is "when you need to," but I was wondering if anyone had some other thoughts.

When your opponent is prone to recovering forward from their lunge and continuing their attack, it may be desireable to retreat with your parry to manage your distance. When your opponent tends to recover back to en-guard, you are probably ahead not to retreat. When you retreat automatically with your parry, you are increasing the likelyhood that you are taking yourself out of riposte distance.

The riposte is your easiest, fastest route to getting a point. Your opponent is voluntarily putting themselves in a position that all you have to do is extend your arm and hit them. Don't deny yourself this opportunity by backing up all the time.