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LeftHanded · 10-04-2006, 07:16 PM

We just had a new stream of new people come in and we just finished teaching them the footwork. I was asked to help teach them the basics. Where do I start. I have been slowly teaching parry 4 and 6 and basic attacks. Any drill suggestions? Also how do you make a line betwen their style and plain wrong.

Morion · 10-04-2006, 07:19 PM

The first drill would be a basic parry 4 riposte. Let them do it standing still for a while then try to get them to incorporate footwork. While wearing masks and jackets of course.

For footwork you can introduce them to the old reliable push-pull routine.

RITFencing · 10-04-2006, 07:24 PM

What weapon?

LeftHanded · 10-04-2006, 07:35 PM

Epee. The thing is that I will put them in a good EnGuard ( sorry for the spelling) and they will move out of it. For reference these kids are ground zero they just started to hold a weapon this week thoughthey have been doing footwork for about 4-5 weeks.

HDG · 10-04-2006, 07:40 PM

How old?

RITFencing · 10-04-2006, 07:41 PM

Personally, I like to teach counter attacks (while moving back) before parries in epee, for a few reasons:

1) Safety. When making a counter attack and then opening up distance, the student is safe whether the action succeeds or fails. When making a parry riposte, the opponent's tip is very close to the student, so if the action fails, they can be in trouble.

2) Mobility. Counter attacks with distance stress using the feet and thinking about the distance, whereas it is very easy for a student to fall into the trap of making a blade action and planting their feet.

3) Non-foilness. It's not really a good thing, in epee, to think about stopping an opponent's attack and then starting your own. If you can hit before they hit you, do so! This is an important thing for epeeists to think about, and teaching parry ripostes first keeps that foil mindset just a smidge more prevalent.

4) Simplicity. A well executed parry riposte in epee, especially if it involves keeping control of the opponent's blade, can be a complex thing, ESPECIALLY if one's partner is a newbie who just stiff arms the whole way. Much easier, at the start, to simply avoid that whole can of worms.

5) Distance, tempo and motion. It gets the student used to the idea that they don't have to be moving forward to hit, and (IMO) is a better way to get people thinking about tempo and distance than PRs because A) it forces them to think about distance to hit and then protect themselves and B) it involves starting ones own action before the opponent has finished theirs.

LeftHanded · 10-04-2006, 07:46 PM

The kids are Freshman and sophmores in high school. Also I think if I can teach them to parry repost then they will be able to avoid the double touches that we all hate.

RITFencing · 10-04-2006, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeftHanded

The kids are Freshman and sophmores in high school. Also I think if I can teach them to parry repost then they will be able to avoid the double touches that we all hate.

I don't hate doubles, if I'm up. And if they use good distance, they will never be hit at all.

I don't mean to offend you, but from these posts and some others I've read, as well as your profile, you may want to seek to further your own fencing education before you get into coaching. If you're forced into the coaching job, or there are no other options for the kids, though, don't panic. Many of us have been there. My advice would be to find a good coach in the area (where are you?) and explain to them that you are coaching high school kids with little to no fencing experience. They should be able to go over things with you that you can pass on to the kids.

BySword · 10-05-2006, 01:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RITFencing

I don't hate doubles, if I'm up. And if they use good distance, they will never be hit at all.

I don't mean to offend you, but from these posts and some others I've read, as well as your profile, you may want to seek to further your own fencing education before you get into coaching. If you're forced into the coaching job, or there are no other options for the kids, though, don't panic. Many of us have been there. My advice would be to find a good coach in the area (where are you?) and explain to them that you are coaching high school kids with little to no fencing experience. They should be able to go over things with you that you can pass on to the kids.

that sounds kinda stalkish.
But I really wonder what area he/she is in too, because my school has the exact same situation.(though we have a coach.)

LeftHanded,
but if you are really left handed, will it be awkward for you teach them parry 4 and 6 though(assuming your new stream of people are mostly righties), because you can easily confuse them.

Phaeton · 10-05-2006, 05:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RITFencing

I don't hate doubles, if I'm up. And if they use good distance, they will never be hit at all.

I hate doubles and I fence sabre....

Quote:

Originally Posted by BySword

LeftHanded,
but if you are really left handed, will it be awkward for you teach them parry 4 and 6 though(assuming your new stream of people are mostly righties), because you can easily confuse them.

There are plenty of lefties that coach right handed for precisely that reason. If you have another lefty to demonstrate it helps things make sense. Ultimately a 4 parry is a 4 parry. You really shoudln't be doing individual work with the demographic and materials you seem to have. Show them the parry, it'll be like a mirror so they'll figure out to parry toward their left intuitively (away form the arm that's holding the blade) then you can have them drill and correct them while they work in pairs.

LeftHanded · 10-05-2006, 06:45 PM

We actually have alot of lefties this year. I know I don't have many years under my belt that is why I am only teaching the basics ( parry 4 and 6, lunge, etc) I am only helping the coach. One of him and too many kids. Oh I am in the Gwinett (crap I can never spell it) area. And yes I am left handed.

Mr Epee · 10-05-2006, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeftHanded

The kids are Freshman and sophmores in high school. Also I think if I can teach them to parry repost then they will be able to avoid the double touches that we all hate.

Whoa, buddy.

This statement betrays a powerful lack of understanding.

You asked for advice... now shut up and take it.

If you knew how to coach, you wouldn't be looking for advice on this forum.

RPI Epeeist · 10-05-2006, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeftHanded

The kids are Freshman and sophmores in high school. Also I think if I can teach them to parry repost then they will be able to avoid the double touches that we all hate.

I'm with RITfencing on the double touches issue. I think an important thing an epeeist can learn is how to DRAW double touches. Like he said, when you're on top they're good... you can relax, set traps and double touch away to victory. Double touches are only frustrating when you're attacking... when you're being attacked, they're kinda nice.

I wouldn't focus on parrying. Binding is more important. A parry-ripost teaches epeeists to leave the opponents blade unchecked. I get a lot of foilists that try that in epee and they find my point in their chest... not smart (beats are different, but that's attacking, I'll stick to defense). Binding is much safer, its one of the first things I was taught in epee. Its not a difficult action, but to master the timing takes lots of practice. Get them to pair up and have one control the other's blade with a bind until it can be carried out of the way (kind of looks like a remise but while controling opponents blade, you know what i mean?) and allow the attacker to make a straight, but slow, lunge.

Sound good??? Anyone agree with this?

BySword · 10-05-2006, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RPI Epeeist

I'm with RITfencing on the double touches issue. I think an important thing an epeeist can learn is how to DRAW double touches. Like he said, when you're on top they're good... you can relax, set traps and double touch away to victory. Double touches are only frustrating when you're attacking... when you're being attacked, they're kinda nice.

I wouldn't focus on parrying. Binding is more important. A parry-ripost teaches epeeists to leave the opponents blade unchecked. I get a lot of foilists that try that in epee and they find my point in their chest... not smart (beats are different, but that's attacking, I'll stick to defense). Binding is much safer, its one of the first things I was taught in epee. Its not a difficult action, but to master the timing takes lots of practice. Get them to pair up and have one control the other's blade with a bind until it can be carried out of the way (kind of looks like a remise but while controling opponents blade, you know what i mean?) and allow the attacker to make a straight, but slow, lunge.

Sound good??? Anyone agree with this?

well, binding still comes from the positions that parries use. besides, if you parry and riposte with opposition, it's pretty safe. Maybe from there, you can teach them binding. after all, parry-riposte is the basics, mastering them is helpful in other areas.

LeftHanded · 10-07-2006, 12:10 PM

When I say parry repost I mean binding. I just learned it under all one name but your right. In my opinion if a double touch can be avoided it should. Sure if Im ahead then I will welcome the double touch but if I am down or in the pools I hate the doubles.

Adler · 10-07-2006, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeftHanded

When I say parry repost I mean binding. I just learned it under all one name but your right. In my opinion if a double touch can be avoided it should. Sure if Im ahead then I will welcome the double touch but if I am down or in the pools I hate the doubles.

I'm afraid that who ever told you a bind is the same as a parry riposte was frankly talking out of his arse.

RPI Epeeist · 10-07-2006, 02:19 PM

Yeah, binding and parry-riposting are two completely different things

telkanuru · 10-07-2006, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RITFencing

Personally, I like to teach counter attacks (while moving back) before parries in epee, for a few reasons:

(reasons snipped for brevity)

I disagree with this, as it was how I was taught. The reason for my disagreement is that it makes the first instinct in the fencer to be to bail out. IMHO the ability and guts to stay in someone's face for just long enough to make them think they got you is much more valuble in the long run (think AiP in sabre). Teaching the counter-attack first is also not a good way for them to learn to be OK with getting hit, or to be ok with making a bold but wrong decision, both of which are key to the learning process.

telkanuru · 10-07-2006, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RPI Epeeist

A parry-ripost teaches epeeists to leave the opponents blade unchecked.

Um, just teach riposte with opposition?

Offensive blade-control actions (prise de fer) are in the long run sore effective. Of course, you have to start somewhere and parrys are still useful, not to mention the fact they promote good distance and finger habits.

Durando · 10-07-2006, 08:45 PM

Just teach simple attacks. Emphasize footwork. Work on simple counterattacks off the opponent's advance. Absence du fer. Then let them bout. Yeah, they'll make all kinds of crap parries anyway. They won't come en guarde properly. It doesn't matter because this will eventually correct itself. Keep it fun and invent bouting games. Give general instructions to structure bouts and let your students work out the solutions.

In a couple of months you will know you are doing well if you have any students who are capable of an advance lunge done with a correct change of tempo. At this point, it doesn't matter if they figure out the parry-riposte--much more important that they learn a proper arrêt for épée.

Learning to control distance in absence du fer is *hard* and a basic skill that is shared at all levels. Teaching actions off the blade early on (especially binds) is a sure recepie for persistent confusion about distance.