Correcting Bad Cards

[contre-Sixte]

How to deal with this situation. Fencers A & B test weapons.

1. Fencer A is off target when touching Fencer B's lame. Fencer A changes weapon. Yellow Card for Fencer A. Confiscated weapon.

2. Fencer A is off target again when touching Fencer B's lame with new weapon. Red Card for Fencer A. Two confiscated weapons.

3. Fencer A is upset. Insists that armorer get involved. It's determined 10 minutes later after lots of weapon/body cord changes that Fencer B's body cord is wired incorrectly, causing the white lights.

According to the rule book, what are the options for the director? Are the Cards eliminated? Weapons returned? Should the director have not issued any Cards in the first place?

[oso97]

Recind the two red cards and yellow card for fencer A, issue yellow card to fencer B, and have a quiet word with the referee about proper testing proceedure. The miswired body cord should have been discovered after the initial test.

[edew]

Fencer A gets off-target when testing is not the weapon's fault. It would be either A's or B's body cord. Test A's by pressing the side of the blade on B's lame and press down the tip. If the result is a colored light, then A's B-C wires are wrong. If it's still white light, then B's lame line (A) is broken (or in this case, mis-wired, which is equivalent to being broken).

I agree with oso: talk to the referee about proper testing procedures.

[contre-Sixte]

Really? Is it legal to go back in time and rescind cards? I imagine that fixing the last bad call - the red card - is OK. But, throwing out the yellow card is kind of like reversing calls in the bout 2 points after the fact.

In other words, I thought a director was only able to correct his last bad call.

[downunder]

Originally Posted by contre-Sixte

Really? Is it legal to go back in time and rescind cards? I imagine that fixing the last bad call - the red card - is OK. But, throwing out the yellow card is kind of like reversing calls in the bout 2 points after the fact.

its not going back in time.... its resinding cards based on a successful appeal to the armourers that the referee was incorrect.

...bloody hell.

[oso97]

Originally Posted by contre-Sixte

Really? Is it legal to go back in time and rescind cards? I imagine that fixing the last bad call - the red card - is OK. But, throwing out the yellow card is kind of like reversing calls in the bout 2 points after the fact.

No, its a totally different situation. Especially if fencing has not resumed/begun.

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by contre-Sixte

How to deal with this situation. Fencers A & B test weapons.

1. Fencer A is off target when touching Fencer B's lame. Fencer A changes weapon. Yellow Card for Fencer A. Confiscated weapon.

2. Fencer A is off target again when touching Fencer B's lame with new weapon. Red Card for Fencer A. Two confiscated weapons.

3. Fencer A is upset. Insists that armorer get involved. It's determined 10 minutes later after lots of weapon/body cord changes that Fencer B's body cord is wired incorrectly, causing the white lights.

According to the rule book, what are the options for the director? Are the Cards eliminated? Weapons returned? Should the director have not issued any Cards in the first place?

First, that should never have happened. if the lam'e goes off target, test directly to the alligator clip. If that goes off target, test directly to the reel or floorcord. A faulty lam'e could easily be either fencer's bodycord, the testing fencer's weapon, or the receiving fencer's lam'e, as well as most parts of the strip. Until you narrow it down, changing this randomly won't help at all. (And the fencer's weapon is the least likely of the bunch...)

At nationals, one of the pools had an intermittently faulty reel, which made it look like it was the fencers' blades and bodycords. The ref, of course, was handing out cards right and left as fencers' equipment failed. Halfway through the pool, one of the fencers got his stuff tested, and when it was fine, he asked the referee to call an armorer to check the strip. The reel was repaired and fencing continued, but since the bouts were already done, the incorrect cards stood. So if the bout is done, the bout is done.

[DHCJr]

Originally Posted by edew

Fencer A gets off-target when testing is not the weapon's fault. It would be either A's or B's body cord. Test A's by pressing the side of the blade on B's lame and press down the tip. If the result is a colored light, then A's B-C wires are wrong. If it's still white light, then B's lame line (A) is broken (or in this case, mis-wired, which is equivalent to being broken).

I agree with oso: talk to the referee about proper testing procedures.

It is possible to have it be the weapons fault, but it is so rare that I would not trust a referee to detect it as they probably never seen it before. In over 30 years I have only seen it twice. If the shaft of the tip is cracked or the tip has something on it, then it is possible.

What edew has discribed is good. I am still trying to figure out how the B cord was miswired. If the A had been switched with either the B or the C they would have got a continuous white light.

For curiosity, if you know how was it miswired?

[contre-Sixte]

I have the body cord. If you are in Richmond, I'll bring it to you.

P.S. it's passed weapons check before!

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by contre-Sixte

P.S. it's passed weapons check before!

And immediately placed into a shock-resistant, vacuum-filled, isolation chamber, where it has been maintained until today!

-B

[KD5MDK]

If you want to grossly distort the circumstances inside a fencers jacket... yes.

[tbryan]

Originally Posted by contre-Sixte

How to deal with this situation. Fencers A & B test weapons.

1. Fencer A is off target when touching Fencer B's lame. Fencer A changes weapon. Yellow Card for Fencer A. Confiscated weapon.

2. Fencer A is off target again when touching Fencer B's lame with new weapon. Red Card for Fencer A. Two confiscated weapons.

3. Fencer A is upset. Insists that armorer get involved. It's determined 10 minutes later after lots of weapon/body cord changes that Fencer B's body cord is wired incorrectly, causing the white lights.

According to the rule book, what are the options for the director?

Ignoring the part where we wonder why the symptom caused the ref to assume that it was A's weapon...

The normal procedure at the start of the bout is for the referee to ask the fencers to test. Something fails. Referee does preliminary checks. He uses that to determine what is probably the faulty piece of equipment, confiscates it, awards the penalty card. He writes the penalty card on the scoresheet.

This process continues until a successful test is made.

If, during the process of testing, the referee (or armorer) finds that the problem was not with the originally suspect equipment, the confiscated equipment can be returned. The cards can be rescinded. I think that we're supposed to retest the original combination before rescinding cards, taking into account the real problem. I don't think that we're required to retest all other equipment presented.

So, for example, a fencer walks up to test. Before he touches his opponent, his off target light goes on (in foil). The referee makes some tests. He thinks that the problem is with the body cord. Yellow cord. Get a new body cable. Still having problems. More tests. Suspect the weapon now. Take weapon. Red card. Second weapon and second body cable seem to work together. No more white lights.

Now, we think that the original problem was the weapon. We try the second weapon with the first body cord (the one we previously confiscated). If that works, the red card is rescinded, and the fencer gets his original body cord back. (If not, we keep the cord, and the fencer keeps the card.) The only problem was the first weapon. The referee keeps the faulty weapon until the end of the bout, and the fencer keeps his yellow card.

Originally Posted by contre-Sixte

Should the director have not issued any Cards in the first place?

Well, we could go through the whole troubleshooting process, figure out what's wrong, and keep track of what non-conforming equipment the fencer presented on the way to the successul test. Then go back and figure out the penalty cards at the end. But that would be even more confusing.

So, we card as we go. The reason we confiscate the equipment is to make sure that no one messes with it while we're isolating the problem. Once we isolate the problem ("oops, bad reel"), if we find that we were wrong along the way, we can return equipment and rescind cards.

Rescinding multiple cards isn't like overturning more than the last touch. We're just keeping track of things we thought were faulty as part of our troubleshooting. It helps if the referee makes a sane troubleshooting process and does more isolation before awarding the first card. In that case, a card isn't rescinded that often.

Related question: in the case I gave above, what happens if a fencer presents (for example) a body cord that is missing inspection marks? We card him for it, and he gets another body cord. Then we discover that there was never a problem with the original body cord. It was just the weapon. We rescind the card we gave for the original body cord (the one that wasn't really failing). Do we rescind the card for the missing inspection mark on the spare? I'm thinking that the fencer gets to keep that card, too, but I'm not sure where in the rules I'd even look to answer that question for sure.

What about if it's not a missing inspection mark but some other clearly failing equipment? For example, he presents a body cord that (somehow) has lost a prong since it was equipment tested. Or (in epee) a weapon that is missing a tip screw. Would those cards stand?

[Redblade]

Originally Posted by contre-Sixte

Really? Is it legal to go back in time ...?

Originally Posted by downunder

its not going back in time.... its resinding cards based on a successful appeal to the armourers that the referee was incorrect.

...bloody hell.

I love this place.

[oso97]

Originally Posted by tbryan

Related question: in the case I gave above, what happens if a fencer presents (for example) a body cord that is missing inspection marks? We card him for it, and he gets another body cord. Then we discover that there was never a problem with the original body cord. It was just the weapon. We rescind the card we gave for the original body cord (the one that wasn't really failing). Do we rescind the card for the missing inspection mark on the spare? I'm thinking that the fencer gets to keep that card, too, but I'm not sure where in the rules I'd even look to answer that question for sure.

The card for missing inspection marks should have been presented at the inital inspection - where the referee checks the fencer in for the bout. No, it would not be recinded in this case.

Originally Posted by tbryan

What about if it's not a missing inspection mark but some other clearly failing equipment? For example, he presents a body cord that (somehow) has lost a prong since it was equipment tested. Or (in epee) a weapon that is missing a tip screw. Would those cards stand?

Depends upon the circumstances. If its at the beginning of the bout OR the first time the piece of equipment has been presented, and something is clearly wrong with it, then the card stands. If fencing has ever commenced utilizing that piece of equipment, no, the card would not stand.

[noodle]

its almost depressing how many times i've seen something like this happen, where the ref lets all of the cards, caused entirely because of their mistakes, stand.

[downunder]

Originally Posted by tbryan

Related question: in the case I gave above, what happens if a fencer presents (for example) a body cord that is missing inspection marks? We card him for it, and he gets another body cord. Then we discover that there was never a problem with the original body cord. It was just the weapon. We rescind the card we gave for the original body cord (the one that wasn't really failing). Do we rescind the card for the missing inspection mark on the spare? I'm thinking that the fencer gets to keep that card, too, but I'm not sure where in the rules I'd even look to answer that question for sure.

What about if it's not a missing inspection mark but some other clearly failing equipment? For example, he presents a body cord that (somehow) has lost a prong since it was equipment tested. Or (in epee) a weapon that is missing a tip screw. Would those cards stand?

The easiest way for this situation not to occur is for the referee not to c*ck up. If the referee doesn't feel confident with the situation then call the armourers.

That being said, if a fencer brings to the piste a bodycord missing control marks, then they will recieve a red card. It doesn't matter why they presented it, they still presented it. Same applies to the non conforming weapons, except with group 1 penalties (yellow-red-red). The offending pieces of equipment will be confiscated until the end of the bout.

[Allen Evans]

Just as depressing are the fencers, not knowing the rules, who let those cards stand unchallenged.

Allen Evans

[tbryan]

Originally Posted by downunder

If the referee doesn't feel confident with the situation then call the armourers.

Sure. I've done that. But the point of threads like this is to help us be (correctly) confident and to do as much as possible at strip. After all, it is a race.

Originally Posted by downunder

That being said, if a fencer brings to the piste a bodycord missing control marks, then they will recieve a red card. It doesn't matter why they presented it, they still presented it. Same applies to the non conforming weapons, except with group 1 penalties (yellow-red-red). The offending pieces of equipment will be confiscated until the end of the bout.

One reason I asked is that this implies that I need to recheck every piece of equipment that I hand back before rescinding the cards. Let's just say that the referee is human and somehow makes a mistake. He thought that the almost constant off targets went away when the body cord was grounded across the prongs. We go through two foils. Fencer now has a red. While testing the third foil, it looks like we're still getting off targets. Hm...that seems unlikely. So, we take another look at that body cord. Sure enough, we find a problem with the body cord. Change the body cord, and the problem goes away. Do I immediately rescind the two cards. Or do I need to reverify that that the weapons work with the new body cord before giving them back and rescinding the cards?

And is all of this just by convention? Or do the rules ever discuss this process in any detail?

[downunder]

yeah start the whole process again, test what is being presented, then card for each bit of non conforming kit from when you found the real problem.

Missing control marks are slightly more serious... not quite sure of the interpretation there, i'll ask an fie referee's commision member this weekend if you're really interested.

[tbryan]

Originally Posted by downunder

yeah start the whole process again, test what is being presented, then card for each bit of non conforming kit from when you found the real problem.

Ick. Good incentive to do it right the first time.

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