Carpal Tunnel leads to tinkering

[fatfencer]

Hey folks,

I have a question.

Can I use a "wrist strap", which is not the same as a martingale btw as a means to affix a heavily canted homemade french grip to my arm?

I'm clenching so much that I really can't help it. I get stressed out in my bouts and my hand is shaking after the pools from gripping so hard.

I like the old style italian grips but they are straight and cramp up my hand.

What I've done is made an extremely supportive and form fitting french grip but with no prongs.

I just went through the rule book. There's nothing that would suggest my NOT being able to use the wrist strap with a french grip. That BS about being able to "throw" the weapon doesn't fly with a french grip because I could throw it anyways without it. Other than that caveat there's nothing that suggest that I can't.

Are there any directors/armorers, etc that say otherwise?

Lemme know please,

FF

[mrbiggs]

The use of a strap to assist in holding the weapon has caused some confusion. If one has a legal orthopedic grip (including the Italian grip), one may use a strap. If one is using a French grip, one may not use a strap. (The applicable rules follow.) The basic concept here is that if one wishes to have a weapon that will allow for longer reach (French handle), one may not have a device (strap) that will give the user added strength.

Hopefully that's a help.

[oiuyt]

When LP first came out with their tennis racket "french" grip one of the claims floating around was that in some cases it helped with tendonitis and other similar over-use injuries. The grip being larger diameter means a significantly more open hand/finger position. Bit expensive to go experimenting with, but if you have access to one that someone else already has it might be worth a go.

-B

[wpotere]

I'm going to have to look into this for my wife. She has horrible carple tunnel and it has kept her from fencing. I think that a simple strap to help support the weapon would be perfect. Besides, she is a noncompetative fencer anyway.

[Morion]

I have a similar problem with Visconti grips. I've been giving myself trigger finger from gripping too hard. I've found that a Belgian grip seems to releive the problem somewhat. I don't know why but it seems to help.

[remise]

I have horrific arthritis. I will agree with Morion that the Belgium grip provides relief, but if you use a pistol grip, none provides the relief that the Zivkovic "B" provides. It's sheer size is the closest thing to a french grip that is a pistol grip.

[DHCJr]

The specific rule involved is M.4.6. If the grip (or glove) includes any device or attachment or has a special shape (orthopaedic) which fixes the position of the hand on the grip. Since a strap is a device that will fix your hand on the handle, but does not fix it in one position only.

Two other handles you might look at that are a posibility to use is a Spanish offset (Not a Spanish) or an American (which is a modified Belgium with the bottom prong cut off.

[fatfencer]

The specific rule involved is M.4.6. If the grip (or glove) includes any device or attachment or has a special shape (orthopaedic) which fixes the position of the hand on the grip. Since a strap is a device that will fix your hand on the handle, but does not fix it in one position only.

Two other handles you might look at that are a posibility to use is a Spanish offset (Not a Spanish) or an American (which is a modified Belgium with the bottom prong cut off.

Can you clariify please? If a french grip by nature doesnt affix the hand in one position, why would using a strap, which would go a lot longer way towards affixing the hand, be illegal?

Thanks,

FF

[RoninX]

Because you could then *conceivably* have both a fixed grip (with strap) and "long" grip (if you detached or removed the strap intentionally or accidentally). Regardless of whether you would or not that combination makes it illegal according to the rule book.

[KD5MDK]

I do not think I would interpret a strap as being a device which fixes your hand on the grip.

[DHCJr]

To give another example. Let us say you strapped something to the top of the car, would you expect it to move or would you hope it would be fixed in that position.

Also, the rules does not just apply othopaedic handles. What do you think they mean by device or attachment. They are not talking about the prongs etc. since those are covered by special shape.

[DHCJr]

Can you clariify please? If a french grip by nature doesnt affix the hand in one position, why would using a strap, which would go a lot longer way towards affixing the hand, be illegal?

Thanks,

FF

I had to re-read your question and my statement several times before I got the problem. The problem is the strap would go a lot longer way towards affixing the hand. First post with your French and put on the strap. This fixes the hand in one position. Now hold the handle next to the guard and put on the strap. This fixes the hand in a second position. That is the problem. Without the strap, your hand can move, thus there is nothing to 'fix' the hand in any position.

With an orthopaedic grip the prongs fix the hand so the hand does not move. The strap does the same thing, but because you can adjust the strap you can fix the hand in multiple places.

I hope this was a better explanation. I need to work on my English. I wish I could explain in my first language Math.

[KD5MDK]

Ok, I'm going to have to admit I was wrong, based on misremembering the text of the FOC FAQ: http://www.fencingofficials.org/FAQ/FAQ.html

The use of a strap to assist in holding the weapon has caused some confusion. If one has a legal orthopedic grip (including the Italian grip), one may use a strap. If one is using a French grip, one may not use a strap. (The applicable rules follow.) The basic concept here is that if one wishes to have a weapon that will allow for longer reach (French handle), one may not have a device (strap) that will give the user added strength.

The main rules that govern grips are:

t.16: With all three weapons, defense must be effected exclusively with the guard and the blade used either separately or together. If the handle has no special device or attachment or special shape (e.g. orthopedic), a fencer may hold it in any way he or she wishes and he or she may also alter the position of his hand on the handle during a bout. However, the weapon must not be - either permanently or temporarily, in an open or disguised manner - transformed into a throwing weapon; it must be used without the hand leaving the hilt . . .

m.4: 1. The maximum length of the grip in foil and épée is 20 cm, measured between lines B and E, and 18 cm, measured between lines B and D. In saber the maximum length of the grip is 17 cm (see Figures 8, 9 and 13, pp. 86, 89, 94).
2. The grip must be able to pass through the same gauge as the guard. It must be so made that normally it cannot injure either the user or the opponent.
3. All types of hilts are allowed providing that they conform to the regulations which have been framed with a view to placing the various types of weapons on the same footing. However, at épée, orthopedic grips, whether metal or not, may not be covered with leather or any material which could hide wires or switches.
4. The grip must not include any device which assists the fencer to use it as a throwing weapon.
5. The grip must not include any device which can increase in any way the protection afforded to the hand or wrist of the fencer by the guard: a cross bar or electric socket which extends beyond the edge of the guard is expressly forbidden.
6. If the grip (or glove) includes any device or attachment or has a special shape (orthopedic) which fixes the position of the hand on the grip, the grip must conform to the following conditions.
(a) It must determine and fix one position only for the hand on the grip.
(b) When the hand occupies this one position on the grip, the extremity of the thumb when completely extended must not be more than 2 cm from the inner surface of the guard.


Can I use a wrist strap (martingale)?

It is legal to use a wrist strap with any orthopedic grip, especially an Italian grip, in USFA competition. French grips, due to the possibility of changing position of the hand, may not include the use of a wrist strap.

[Ordway]

I'm clenching so much that I really can't help it. I get stressed out in my bouts and my hand is shaking after the pools from gripping so hard. FF

You got loads of useful advice about the grip details (which I don't know anything about) but I wanted to chime in and suggest that you try to address the problem at its source: the clenched grip. If it is nerves and anxiety causing you to tense your hand and squeeze too hard, chances are you will find a way to do it with any grip, to some degree.

I'd suggest consciously overcompensating in practice, holding the weapon so loosely it just about falls out of your hand, to teach your hand how to relax. And I'd seriously work on relaxation techniques so you can calm yourself down. I'm willing to bet it will help all your fencing; the tense hand most likely leads to a tense arm and shoulder. My coach is fanatical about making sure I have a relaxed shoulder so I can make cuts correctly without telegraphing the move; I am sure it is the same in foil.

I have some carpal tunnel tendencies, and when it was flaring up a few years ago the doctor gave me some good stretches for the wrist and hands. I still find them useful for stretching the wrists. I'm sure they're on the web somewhere. Doing those between bouts might help loosen up your wrists.

Also, I'd suggest looking at the ergonomics of other things you do with your hands and wrists. Are you typing or writing (or doing whatever else) in a posture that causes you to tense your wrists? This could lead to a general tendency to be tense, which would predispose you to gripping too hard.

[fatfencer]

I had to re-read your question and my statement several times before I got the problem. The problem is the strap would go a lot longer way towards affixing the hand. First post with your French and put on the strap. This fixes the hand in one position. Now hold the handle next to the guard and put on the strap. This fixes the hand in a second position. That is the problem. Without the strap, your hand can move, thus there is nothing to 'fix' the hand in any position.

With an orthopaedic grip the prongs fix the hand so the hand does not move. The strap does the same thing, but because you can adjust the strap you can fix the hand in multiple places.

I hope this was a better explanation. I need to work on my English. I wish I could explain in my first language Math.

So there is nothing wrong with taking an ortho grip and using a strap but to take a weaker grip like the french and make it stronger is illegal?

One can change length infinitely with a French without a strap. With a strap it is more difficult though not impossible.

Despite people posting the applicable rules there really is nothing in the rules it seems that would make it illegal to use an italian style wrist strap with a French. What am I missing that should make this clearer to me?

I must be an imbecile.

FF

PS: What I'm trying to say is I want to permanently affix my hand in one position using a French grip and a wrist strap. Saying I can still move the grip around with a wrist strap should by no means be a bar to using it since I can move my hand around with a french grip anyways.

[mrbiggs]

So there is nothing wrong with taking an ortho grip and using a strap but to take a weaker grip like the french and make it stronger is illegal?

Yes.

Despite people posting the applicable rules there really is nothing in the rules it seems that would make it illegal to use an italian style wrist strap with a French. What am I missing that should make this clearer to me?

It's not specifically outlined in the rules, but the general idea is that any grip that allows posting (i.e., the french, without or without the strap), cannot have any attachment that makes it stronger.

PS: What I'm trying to say is I want to permanently affix my hand in one position using a French grip and a wrist strap. Saying I can still move the grip around with a wrist strap should by no means be a bar to using it since I can move my hand around with a french grip anyways.

Exactly. And then the wrist strap gives you more control. A wrist strap with a french grip gives you mobility and strength.

The rules for grips can be summed up with the guideline that you cannot have your cake and eat it too.

[fatfencer]

Ok so I'm not hallucinating and there is nothing in the rules per se, but it seems to be an 'interpretation' of the rules that everyone seemingly lives by...


I was beginning to think I was an utter retard.

I still hold some hope that one day, one day I will just get over it and actually REALIZE that I am an utter retard.

Thanks for the help folks. I think I will bend the handle of an italian grip so that it wont be so straight.

Anyone got a pic of a spanish offset?

Thanks,

FF

[fatfencer]

You got loads of useful advice about the grip details (which I don't know anything about) but I wanted to chime in and suggest that you try to address the problem at its source: the clenched grip. If it is nerves and anxiety causing you to tense your hand and squeeze too hard, chances are you will find a way to do it with any grip, to some degree.

I'd suggest consciously overcompensating in practice, holding the weapon so loosely it just about falls out of your hand, to teach your hand how to relax. And I'd seriously work on relaxation techniques so you can calm yourself down. I'm willing to bet it will help all your fencing; the tense hand most likely leads to a tense arm and shoulder. My coach is fanatical about making sure I have a relaxed shoulder so I can make cuts correctly without telegraphing the move; I am sure it is the same in foil.

I have some carpal tunnel tendencies, and when it was flaring up a few years ago the doctor gave me some good stretches for the wrist and hands. I still find them useful for stretching the wrists. I'm sure they're on the web somewhere. Doing those between bouts might help loosen up your wrists.

Also, I'd suggest looking at the ergonomics of other things you do with your hands and wrists. Are you typing or writing (or doing whatever else) in a posture that causes you to tense your wrists? This could lead to a general tendency to be tense, which would predispose you to gripping too hard.

Brains, beauty, hmmm. Good combo.

Actually I thought a lot about this. I'm in the mortgage business as a broker and yes dealing with customers is always stressful. I tend to be a tense person too which led me into a decades long exploration of internal arts like taiji, yoga, etc.

The more in control I am the less stressed I tend to be. I've found lately that the strap really helps mentally if nothing else. If I can find a way to make the grip more comfortable and more natural to me then perhaps I will clench less. Does that mean I'm anal??? LOL

AS for addressing the underlying causes of stress, I fear that mega lottery winnings and a new career as a pornstar will be the only way to truly solve my problems. ROTFLMAO

FF

[HDG]

[QUOTE=fatfencer]Anyone got a pic of a spanish offset?/QUOTE]


Here ya go:

556s_b.jpg

[DHCJr]

So there is nothing wrong with taking an ortho grip and using a strap but to take a weaker grip like the french and make it stronger is illegal?

One can change length infinitely with a French without a strap. With a strap it is more difficult though not impossible.

Despite people posting the applicable rules there really is nothing in the rules it seems that would make it illegal to use an italian style wrist strap with a French. What am I missing that should make this clearer to me?

I must be an imbecile.

FF

PS: What I'm trying to say is I want to permanently affix my hand in one position using a French grip and a wrist strap. Saying I can still move the grip around with a wrist strap should by no means be a bar to using it since I can move my hand around with a french grip anyways.

It is not an interpretation and you are not an imbecile. Yes you can change the position on a French, but there is nothing that stops you (fixes the position) from changing the position.

This is different when you use a strap. One time you can decide to hold the handle by posting and you put the strap on. Is the position of your hand fixed by having the strap? Yes.

Now you take off the strap, and move your hand up to the guard and put the strap back on. Is the position of your hand fixed by having the strap? Yes. Is this a different position? Yes.

Thus with this same device or attachment you can have your hand fixed in more than one position. M.4.6.a It must determine and fix one position only for the hand on the grip.