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rcmatthews · 09-28-2006, 03:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by latenight

Describes me as well...... I am rude, I enjoy winning, hmm I seem to have forgot what the next point was..........Oh and I sure as hell hope I never have "panache". They should make antibiotics for that sort of thing.
Oh yeah, and I just love me to death.

Yup. Me too. And sure I respect my opponent, but as Sabreur said, if we are at 14-14, it means that I likely missed out on a touch that I should have gotten. However, I very much enjoy fencing these points because of the adrenaline rush as well as the look on my opponents faces after they lose a 14-14 bout.

D'Art · 09-28-2006, 07:33 AM

What's the point in people getting so worked up about a little hand-wave near the end of the bout?

If that's all it takes to put you off your game, I submit to you that you need to work on your mental game. A lot. A hell of a lot.

Get it over it, and make sure you get the important hit.[/rant]

Inquartata · 09-28-2006, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by D'Art

If that's all it takes to put you off your game, I submit to you that you need to work on your mental game. A lot. A hell of a lot.

What's this?! Wisdom?!

Who are you, and what have you done with the real D'Art???

D'Art · 09-28-2006, 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inquartata

What's this?! Wisdom?!

Who are you, and what have you done with the real D'Art???

Amongst the sh!t, there is occasionally gold.....

Happy now, Inq?

telkanuru · 09-28-2006, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bunbury

"Bunbury"? Go look up some Oscar Wilde.

And Wilde would be increadibly less disturbing?

fatfencer · 09-29-2006, 06:46 PM

I salute my opponent:

a) gives me time to breathe

b) time to relax and focus

c) being courteous is good

FF

Mr Epee · 09-29-2006, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fatfencer

I salute my opponent:

a) gives me time to breathe

b) time to relax and focus

c) being courteous is good

FF

2/3 of your reasons are not what I would call shining examples of sportspersonship.

fencingfrog · 09-30-2006, 07:35 PM

i salute. i was taught to, but i would anyway. its polite and sportswomanlike. both fencers have fought hard (i hope!) to reach a tied score at the end of a bout, and should show respect for each other.

mrbiggs · 09-30-2006, 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fencingfrog

both fencers have fought hard (i hope!) to reach a tied score at the end of a bout, and should show respect for each other.

why should they? It's not done in any other sport. You're going to show respect for each other in one touch anyway. There really just isn't a reason for it.

slowgraffiti515 · 09-30-2006, 10:31 PM

i always salute. even if im mad at myself for not totally kicking their butts

Goldgar · 09-30-2006, 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrbiggs

why should they? It's not done in any other sport.

I don't see any need for fencing to be like all the other sports. Fencing is its own sport, with its own traditions.

qatet · 09-30-2006, 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Epee

2/3 of your reasons are not what I would call shining examples of sportspersonship.

I see nothing wrong with FF's sportsmanship, and think that it is also evidence of good gamesmanship.

mrbiggs · 09-30-2006, 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goldgar

I don't see any need for fencing to be like all the other sports. Fencing is its own sport, with its own traditions.

This isn't an actual fencing tradition, though. Saluting before and after the bout, for example, is.

This is not universally done, and has no relevance to duelling.

Goldgar · 10-01-2006, 12:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrbiggs

This isn't an actual fencing tradition, though. Saluting before and after the bout, for example, is.

You're mistaken, or else you're confusing "tradition" with "rule". Until relatively recently, it was neither the rule nor the tradition to salute after the bout. "Salute before the bout, shake hands afterward" was the tradition; I'm not sure if it was a formal rule back then or not. People did not salute the opponent after the bout.

Saluting at la belle is most certainly a tradition that is widespread at least in certain areas; witness how many people have responded in this thread that they were taught to do it. It is not, and AFAIK has never been, a rule.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrbiggs

This is not universally done, and has no relevance to duelling.

A tradition doesn't have to be universally observed, to be a tradition. Heck, *rules* aren't universally observed.

I never said anything about duelling. I don't see how a tradition like this one could be derived from duelling practice, though it seems to me that fencing's martial origins were conducive to the formal and polite behavior that has long been characteristic of it; a tradition of polite behavior that could in turn give rise to the "la belle salute".

But I don't know this for a fact, as I haven't made a historical study. All I know is that I was taught it as a traditional formality by my fencing master, who was taught it by his, and there are many other people who were taught the same thing by their fencing masters. So I don't think you can say there's no such tradition, no matter how much you may question when and how it arose.

mrbiggs · 10-01-2006, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goldgar

You're mistaken, or else you're confusing "tradition" with "rule". Until relatively recently, it was neither the rule nor the tradition to salute after the bout. "Salute before the bout, shake hands afterward" was the tradition; I'm not sure if it was a formal rule back then or not. People did not salute the opponent after the bout.

Saluting at la belle is most certainly a tradition that is widespread at least in certain areas; witness how many people have responded in this thread that they were taught to do it. It is not, and AFAIK has never been, a rule.

I think we could do without saluting the opponent after the bout as well, personally. (Though it is helpful in that it gives fencers a few extra seconds to calm down if they are angry after a bout.)

My point is that fencing traditions, such as the signs of respect before and after the bout, are based on actual duelling traditions. Even if we vary the actual method between saluting and handshaking and whatnot, it's the same idea. Saluting at la belle, on the other hand, seems to me to be completely fabricated. Obviously, in a real duel, they did not salute each other once they had each stabbed the other four times. There are places all over where it's tradition to call an attack without an extended arm as preparation in foil, but that doesn't make it ok.

Furthermore, how many times do you want to salute in a given bout? I think that three sets of salutes, making nine total, is a little much in a five touch bout.

Inquartata · 10-01-2006, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrbiggs

fencing traditions, such as the signs of respect before and after the bout, are based on actual duelling traditions.

And duellists of the 17th century probably said they were based on chivalric tournament traditions; and knights probably said they were based on Roman traditions; and the Romans...

What does it matter, ultimately, whence a tradition comes? What matters is that it IS. Saluting at la belle is a tradition which IS. It may never have attained universality, but little does. It has been widespread enough for long enough to qualify as a tradition.And it is not as though it's some grueling, exhausting ritual. Where's the harm?

On the basis of Pareto optimality, we should do it.

Quote:

Saluting at la belle, on the other hand, seems to me to be completely fabricated.

Meh, so are many of the rules and practices of fencing. The dimensions of the strip, the target areas, the time periods and scores of bouts---all fabricated. So what? Does that mean we needn't observe them?

Quote:

Obviously, in a real duel, they did not salute each other once they had each stabbed the other four times.

In a duel they did not forbid themselves the use of the off hand, restrict themselves to a strip or have a referee, either. I don't see what you are arguing.

HDG · 10-01-2006, 11:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inquartata

On the basis of Pareto optimality, we should do it.

I reckon I'm just being dense, but I don't see any Pareto-based argument either in favor or against a trivial gesture like this.

mrbiggs · 10-02-2006, 12:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inquartata

Meh, so are many of the rules and practices of fencing. The dimensions of the strip, the target areas, the time periods and scores of bouts---all fabricated. So what? Does that mean we needn't observe them?

No, most rules have a reason behind them. Such as, if there were no strip dimensions, then a bout would not really be doable, would it?

I just don't see any reason to salute at la belle. Sure, they've given you a good bout, so what? You're about to salute them in one more touch anyway. Plus, I've definitely had 5-3 bouts that were better than 5-4 bouts. Should I saulte at 4-3 then?

It just doesn't make sense to me.

Seraph · 10-03-2006, 03:28 AM

Yes. I salute before, and after a bout, and at La Belle.
It is only proper courtesy. I will not fence someone unless they salute me, and if I direct the bout, I will not start the fight until both parties have saluted me, the judges (in dry bouting) and each other.

Inquartata · 10-03-2006, 06:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HDG

I reckon I'm just being dense, but I don't see any Pareto-based argument either in favor or against a trivial gesture like this.

Look at the poll results. 3/4 of us do it. Apparently, we find some utility in it. And it does not harm those who don't like it. It provides some utility, and costs nothing. Ergo, Pareto optimality.