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CvilleFencer · 09-21-2006, 02:28 PM

Okay, let me start this off with the usual disclaimer that I am not in the medical profession and that all that follows is my personal experience, not medical fact, blah blah blah...

As a fencer, I have several nasty prior injuries that have been recurring problems for me in the sport, in addition to the normal fencing problems of not being in top shape but doing a lot of fencing/training/coaching. As such it seems like I almost always am fencing with something wrong with me, and I am sure a lot of the older fencers can sympathize with the feeling.

Since I started fencing I have had a huge problem with muscle cramps. Not little charley horse type cramps that are uncomfortable, but full on very painful muscle clenches that last for a long time, completely lock up my leg and can make it very difficult to walk the next day from being so sore. Not from the fencing, but from the cramps.

I tried the usual, lots of hydration, electrolyte replacement waters, various creams and so forth with no results. They were almost always in one leg and it is a leg that has had a lot of damage to it and is almost more replacement parts than factory at this point. I figured it was just something I would have to live with and suck it up.

A few months ago my mother in law, who is an RN (albeit a rather hippieish, new age RN) heard about the problem. She suggested that I start taking magnesium supplements, in a fairly high dose, or so it seemed to me. She has worked with a lot of recovering patients who have had muscle surgery or have been bed ridden for a while and had very good results.

I did not by into it, but Danielle (my Fiancée) bugged me into trying it. After about a week, no more serious muscle cramps. Sure, I get the occasional twinge, but not the leg locked up in serious pain for 10 or 15 minutes variety. I am taking two 500mg tablets every day and it has really, really helped with the problem.

Recently I did something not nice to my elbow. I ignored it for a while and toughed it out until it got to the point that I could not really lift anything heavy with that arm and that I could not resist even moderately forceful blade work without a lot of pain. The Doc's said it was a nasty case of tennis elbow and that I should take a few weeks off. Hard to do when your job is coaching and you suck with your off hand, but I gave it a try and it was better. Until I went back to training. After a couple of weeks it was right back to being awful and made fencing very difficult.

A clubmate of mine recommended something that had helped him with an injury called MSM. I had never heard of it but I thought I would give it a try (I wish I had tried it sooner than I did). Last Tuesday at practice I had fenced a fair amount of foil against people who were much better than me and with very powerful blade work. The next morning my arm was killing me and I could not even open a soda bottle without pain. Started the MSM, at 1000mg and now, the arm is much better. Not completely pain free, but I can at least do epee blade work and am not as panicked about the kickoff.

In addition to all that, I am partially color blind. A while ago I started taking a type of vitamin with lots of just about everything in it and my color recognition has gotten much better. Not completely un-color blind, but better.

So, the moral of all this? I tended to discount the "vitamins for everything" culture as another new age, trendy snake oil right up there with crystal healing and psychic surgery. In short I thought all the crap about vitamins curing this or that was a tax on gullible or desperate people. So, it would seem I was wrong, at least about some of them. If you are having some problems with muscle aches, joint pain or the like, talk to someone who knows something about vitamins and sports medicine. There may be a simple aide for the problem sitting on your grocery store or GNC shelf.

Allen Evans · 09-21-2006, 02:33 PM

Cville, I'm glad that you've found relief from some of your aches and pains through supplements and vitimins. But I would caution anyone that they have to be VERY careful what they put in their bodies.

Often supplements have additional additives that, while they may not cause harm, run the risk of being a banned substance for their sport.

Allen

darius · 09-21-2006, 02:51 PM

I don't remember where I read this, but some lab did a bunch of tests on commercial off-the-shelf supplements and found ingredients banned by WADA that weren't mentioned on the label!

That's not cool!

That being said, it seems all the anecdotal evidence I hear about glucosamine is positive as far as joint pain goes. My doc suggested fish oil caplets for an anti-inflammatory effect, and if it's a placebo, it seems to be a pretty good one (not to mention any heart benefits) -- my ibuprofen usage has noticably decreased.

darius

CvilleFencer · 09-21-2006, 03:03 PM

As a just barely div 1 level fencer, I don't think I need to worry about the WADA rules just yet, but most definitley a good point for others and one that had not even occured to me. Thanks for pointing that out Allen and Darius!

Now you have gotted me thinking about the goovey Black Scorpian energy drinks I found and fell in love with at the big Chinese market in Richmond. Not sure what's in it since the label is in Chinese, but it sure does pack a whallop. Probably means that something in it is on the WADA list...

magic_moose · 09-21-2006, 03:14 PM

My father has been using large doses of magnesium for several decades to control severe leg cramps. Doctors were no help.

Given that he is now 88 and has his cramps well under control, I conclude that
1. It works.
2. It doesn't cause any harm.

Allen Evans · 09-21-2006, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by magic_moose

My father has been using large doses of magnesium for several decades to control severe leg cramps. Doctors were no help.

Given that he is now 88 and has his cramps well under control, I conclude that
1. It works.
2. It doesn't cause any harm.

Funny, when I was 18, I tried to make the same argument concerning Keith Richards and heroin!

Allen

magic_moose · 09-21-2006, 03:47 PM

I suspect that heroin will take care of leg cramps, but Keith Richards appeared to be 88 when he was about 30

Phaeton · 09-21-2006, 04:07 PM

I lack any faith in the field of natural suplements, and have great faith in the ability of the human body to heal. In all actuality it's probably the placebo effect.

Natural suplements are being sold off in ways they shouldn't be, and a lot of it is absolutely rediculous. There' a great Pen and Teller $#@$@# episode on this, but I've seen plenty of decent summaries of the issue in other place. In short, the FDA doesn't review the statements of the companies and they can put anything on the market, even things that are dangerous in high doses, and go ahead and claim it does good.

If it works for you great, but I'm not putting anything into my body that I don't absolutely need especially if the FDA hasn't reviewed it.

I'm all for people taking drugs that have high risks, and i mgiht not always side with the FDA but medical claims need to be looked into, and the laws need to be changed so people stopped getting duped and scammed. Bills were pass through via the money of the supplement industry.

If you want to take something read the ingrediants, reseach the product, and you should be absolutely fine.

dramamine · 09-21-2006, 04:37 PM

it's a well known fact that athletes are very often deficient in zinc and magnesium and that, at least in males (only studies i've seen have been conerning males) supplementation of these two can increase testosterone, muscle mass, and increase quality of sleep. the recommendation is usually around 450mg of magnesium and 30mg of zinc, taken 30 minutes before bed, and well away from any calcium as calcium disrupts the absorption of zinc.

in fact studies have shown that magnesium supplementation alone can improve performance in male athletes. i'm not sure if you noticed but when i started supplementing magnesium, about 1-2 weeks later i stopped waking up in the middle of the night and started having way more vivid dreams.

no naturalist mumbo jumbo there. it's extremely easy to find the studies as well if you google it.

haven't read much about MSM.

Fencergrl · 09-21-2006, 06:07 PM

MSM is a natural substance we used to get in our food before we started with chemical farming. I find it more effective than glucosamine (which isn't something that we would naturally find occuring in our foods).

We also don't eat enough cold water fish... which is why Omega 3 is so often recommended. Because we get so much Omega 6 & 9 from modern diets, it's out of balance. So adding Omega 3 improves brain function, heart function and relieves joint pain... I never expected to live without knee pain until I started taking Omega 3's.... the funny thing is I took them for a shoulder injury.

Cville... I had leg pain once and my doctor recommended calcium-mag supplements. I have always heard that magnesium and calcium need to be taken together as they need to taken in balance with each other.

I caution you in regards to all "energy" drinks. There has been some real problems with people thinking they are "healthy". I can send a link on a news report if anyone is interested.

I_luv_saber · 09-21-2006, 06:49 PM

I had a friend make the mistake of taking Dayquil along with an energy drink (he heard it would keep him awake). He was shaking like a leaf within 15 min. I mean, bad shakes. I don't really like/buy into the whole energy drink thing, but at any rate, don't drink 'em with Dayquil... even if it's 2 in the morning and you still have another 5 hours on your shift

Downtown · 09-21-2006, 07:09 PM

I have been having trouble with cramping lately. I love experimenting on myself. Interesting post, I will give it a try.

Fencergrl · 09-21-2006, 07:27 PM

Downtown,

Here's a link you might find useful... http://www.alive.com/2703a9a2.php

I find this Canadian website very useful, I hope you will as well.

Fencergrl · 09-21-2006, 07:38 PM

Some supplements are shown to be more easily absorbed. Liquid is best, then capsules or powders, lastly hard tablets.

Don't forget that many supplements do not play nice with your medications. You might want to discuss this with your family doctor or even better your pharmacist (they are the real experts in drugs).

If you are not taking medications, but still have concerns a naturopath or nutritionist can be very helpful as well (my naturopath was a MD).