bad practice, last night

[lone-woodwose]

im new on this forum but i have been fencing for a few years.

i have a problem that i wanted to ask about...i would look it up on the search thing, but the school blocked it or something (im in latin class now).

my problem:
how do you deal with fencers that do things that not logical? i was fencing this kid last night, and he was balencing on one leg! and he was trying to sit down on the strip or something too. i have been in his class for a year or so and i would say we are the same level. but he kicks my a$$ whenb he does stuff like this, if he really tries we are the same level.

how do you deal with people like that?



thanks for the help

[oiuyt]

You keep practicing until the disadvantages of the weirdness(es) are obvious, at which point you exploit them unmercifully until a) they stop, or b) the bout ends.

This is one reason why it's beneficial to fence a wide range of people -- you gain experience against a wider range of options that your opponents might employ.

-B

[Inquartata]

Well, if it's only practice you could try telling them that you'll fence them when they decide to take your sport seriously and not until then. It's not helping your training any.

[MyrddinsPrecint]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

Well, if it's only practice you could try telling them that you'll fence them when they decide to take your sport seriously and not until then. It's not helping your training any.

But then what happens when you get to competition and you have to fence someone with equally weird tactics? It does happen.

In college fencing, there are a wide variety of opponents. It is possible to go from fencing someone who has national points to fencing someone who's only been fencing for 6 months. Some college programs are great, some teach things that are unusual. Perhaps effective, but unusual.

The trick is to know when you need to HIT someone, and when you need to FENCE someone. If you're trying to set things up (i will lull my opponent into whatever pattern, and then break it and get them)--- it won't work against a less sophisticated opponent. then you need to stop thinking tactics, and start thinking "wow, his arm is dangling there doing nothing"

And this is a relative scale. Collegiately, there are a lot of people that I have to just think about hitting. Then again, in the same pool of fencers, there are people who just hit me.

[wpotere]

We had a guy that was like this in my club in the states. He would do the dumbest things even to the point of breaking weapons. He "claimed" that it was because he was trained in Kendo.... Whatever.... Anyway, I would simply stop engaging him until he was finished looking like an idiot or until he wore himself out.

[RPI Epeeist]

For me, if I come across someone who's doing weird things, I take an extra amount of time in the first few points to analyze my opponent. With his weird tactics, does he keep his weight on his front foot or his back? Is his front foot exposed or should the hand be a target. I've noticed for a lot of absence of blade fencers, (which are weird for me to fence) they're knee and foot are widely exposed and, if done correctly, it can be difficult to replace their tip to defend it. The thing is, when someone's fencing weird like that, there is usually a reason. They want you to do something. Chances are, your friend is expecting you to go to certain places. When you analyze your opponent, you can't just look at what you think is open, you have to think about what your opponent KNOWS is open, cuz it might be a trap.

If he was balancing on one leg... I'd say bind his blade or beat-lunge... I can't imagine his balance would help with either of those.
As for sitting on the strip... unless there's more to it, I'd say a strong beat to displace the tip and then pretty much fleche as fast as you can... where's he gonna go???

Unless there's something else to this kid... it sounds like a little experience in mentally breaking down an opponent's style is all you need.

[RITFencing]

Just keep your distance and let them get tired of it... actually, that's how I deal wth most wierdness; just stay out of distance. Usually the crap they pull prevents them from moving too well, and they probably don't have a great idea of distance anyway, so it's easy to make their attack fall short, pick up their blade and hit.

To the kendoist problem: I've had people like that, and I tell them that it's wonderful that they've been trained in kendo, but in case they didn't notice, this is FENCING. If they become childish or pouty, ask them if they would try fencing moves in a kendo class. Ask what the reaction would be.

I think it helps that I'm one of the coaches at the RIT club and so when push comes to shove I can just say "stop that." With the others, don't validate their behavior. Refuse to fence them if they're breaking blades and being dangerous and childish. If they insist on doing wierd stuff in a bout, then stay out of distance. It's still a refusal to fence them, just in a shorter time frame. Make it clear that they are here to fence. Other crap, be it kendo or general wierdness, can take place before or after practice/tournaments, but right now, anyone who doesn't want to fence shouldn't show up.

PS RPI Epeeist; have I run into you at tournaments? My name is Sean Horan.

[dramamine]

Originally Posted by RITFencing

Just keep your distance and let them get tired of it... actually, that's how I deal wth most wierdness; just stay out of distance. Usually the crap they pull prevents them from moving too well, and they probably don't have a great idea of distance anyway, so it's easy to make their attack fall short, pick up their blade and hit.

To the kendoist problem: I've had people like that, and I tell them that it's wonderful that they've been trained in kendo, but in case they didn't notice, this is FENCING. If they become childish or pouty, ask them if they would try fencing moves in a kendo class. Ask what the reaction would be.

I think it helps that I'm one of the coaches at the RIT club and so when push comes to shove I can just say "stop that." With the others, don't validate their behavior. Refuse to fence them if they're breaking blades and being dangerous and childish. If they insist on doing wierd stuff in a bout, then stay out of distance. It's still a refusal to fence them, just in a shorter time frame. Make it clear that they are here to fence. Other crap, be it kendo or general wierdness, can take place before or after practice/tournaments, but right now, anyone who doesn't want to fence shouldn't show up.

PS RPI Epeeist; have I run into you at tournaments? My name is Sean Horan.

Totally agreed about staying out of distance. Lots of these fencers will just lose interest, energy or focus and then you can set up a simple attack.

To the OP, when you decide to try and set up the hit, make sure you're down on your legs, taking small steps, and make simple, committed actions. I used to have a lot of trouble with squirmy fencers as well. You might be missing because you are beginning too quickly and the target is displacing before you can react to it. Also, try and make sure your tip and the target are both in your line of vision (don't pull your hand too much). If all else fails, as bad as it sounds, I usually just pull my hand back when I see them start to squirm, find the target, and concentrate on ramming my blade 6 inches into their chest.

[RITFencing]

Originally Posted by dramamine

Totally agreed about staying out of distance. Lots of these fencers will just lose interest, energy or focus and then you can set up a simple attack.

The other neat thing about staying out of distance is that it forces you to be patient... that's another thing. Don't just go for the quick touches right off the bat with these freaks. They're too random and attacking without thought is just playing their game. They're not reacting to you, they're not thinking; their brains are hooked up to random number generators. They WILL mess up, and it's only a matter of time. Just wait patiently until they do, and THEN nail them with a clean, simple action.

That's the other thing, which I think was mentioned. When fencing a mook, whether a random newbie or someone who just sticks their arm out and stiff arms/disengages, be clean and simple. You never know when that random thrust or reflexive oh crap parry is going to mess up your complex, subtle attack, and they won't react to complex, subtle things anyway.

[Windsetter]

Originally Posted by lone-woodwose

i was fencing this kid last night, and he was balencing on one leg! and he was trying to sit down on the strip or something too.

Sounds like he is not very well balanced. Give him a thrust to the thigh and watch him crash. Two or three times and he will learn that is not as effective.

[CheekyCanuck]

I agree with most of the other posts.

Keep your distance and bide your time. Wait for a moment when he is most off balance or his blade is furthest from where you will attack, then use a simple attack.
I'm always surprised at how the simple attacks and parries can be very affective against the most complicated attacks.

[RPI Epeeist]

Originally Posted by RITFencing

PS RPI Epeeist; have I run into you at tournaments? My name is Sean Horan.

Yeah, the name sounds familiar. My name's Alex Herzog. You were at Staatsburgh this Sunday, right?

[Phaeton]

Assess valid target area, weak actions and just simply finish. Take a point or two to see what the fencer is diong and adapt, don't change your game all that much, use the actions you know. Weird fencers are fencers too, and just as prone to being stupid and far easier to beat. People are taught to fence the way they fence because it works.

It's an experience issue. After a while it ceases to matter how weird somone is, it just matters how easily you can counter a given action.

[eac]

Fencing these kinds of fencers once or twice is useful for fencing in the lower-level national tournaments (i.e. Div II and III), because in those each DE your opponent will be a terrible fencer in a completely bizarre and different way, and you have to adapt and win despite everything.

[seven6ty]

Just hit 'em in the kneecaps!!!

[RITFencing]

Originally Posted by RPI Epeeist

Yeah, the name sounds familiar. My name's Alex Herzog. You were at Staatsburgh this Sunday, right?

Yup, don't think I fenced you, though.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Kendo is gay.

Its an excuse for swinging a stick around.

[eac]

Originally Posted by D+F+P=Hadouken!

Kendo is gay.

Its an excuse for swinging a stick around.

I really hope that was intended to be ironic, and not just accidentally ironic...

[Craig]

Originally Posted by D+F+P=Hadouken!

Kendo is gay.

Its an excuse for swinging a stick around.

No more so than fencing.

Good kendo is very good and fun. Bad kendo is, well, about like bad fencing.

Craig

[wpotere]

I agree with Craig. Good Kendo is actually great to watch. They have great accuracy and speed and it does take a lot of skill to master much like our fencing.