On the subject of honor and civility in fencing

**D'Artagnan1673** · 08-21-2002 12:28 PM

Craig, any chance you could move those last few posts over to this thread?

Thanks!

***Craig*** · 08-21-2002 12:37 PM

I can't move individual posts. The best thing to do would be to copy/paste them in as a quote.

Cheers,
Craig

**achilleus** · 08-21-2002 10:02 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by D'Artagnan1673:
Idealisticly, fencing should be that way, but no it certainly is not.<hr /></blockquote>Why should it be that way? Because you think so? Because a few older coaches think so? Fencing is. Nothing more, if you want to add all sorts of ideals and emotions to it, realize that such thoughts will hinder your improvement in competition. But then competition probably isn't your goal.

You said it perfectly that you were happy with your low level of competition. Me, I love going to world cups, I love the screaming, the fighting, the spitting. Without that I would have stopped fencing a long time ago.

In practice, at the club is a different matter, as is off the strip.

**Pierfrancesco** · 08-21-2002 10:23 PM

i acknowledge good touches when fencing my fellow club mates. but in a competition it would just weird. you don't want to give away anything to your opponent.

we salute, shake hands, and everyone is happy (most of the time)

**Moonitic** · 08-22-2002 04:00 AM

Considering the original point to the sword was to kill...we can't say our sport is THAT, er, civil.

For the most part, the fencers I've met are honorable people. You don't generally hear (especially in the news) that Fencer X got busted for drugs, rape or murder. Of course, it's still a possibility.

**epeemike81** · 08-22-2002 05:10 AM

In answer to your question, D'art, yes, I do acknowledge when I hit floor. it is not, however, because I think to not do so would be unfair to my opponent. after all, if I do, and he doesn't, I am putting myself at a disadvantage. Rather, I do it for one reason: Pure, unadulterated pride.

No, fencing is not now (and I suspect never has truly been) a genlemanly sport. At one time fencing WAS a "gentleman's sport", which as we pointed out referred to its exclusionary nature, but thankfully it is not anymore. Whats more, it is a GOOD thing that fencing is not gentlemanly. do not confuse respect with gentlemanly behavior. all fencers should (and most do) respect their opponent and the director. this doesn't mean that they shouldn't try and get calls, accept calls they know to be wrong, etc.

**veeco** · 08-22-2002 09:47 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Moonitic:
Considering the original point to the sword was to kill...we can't say our sport is THAT, er, civil.

For the most part, the fencers I've met are honorable people. You don't generally hear (especially in the news) that Fencer X got busted for drugs, rape or murder. Of course, it's still a possibility.<hr /></blockquote>Well, if you read the FIE news section on their website (it's translated in English), you will see that there are actually quite a few fencers each year that get positive tests for tetrahydrocannabinol, which is the chemical that gives cannabis it's now so famous characteristics.

**veeco** · 08-22-2002 09:53 AM

Another thing to bear in mind:

Fencing is a mental sport. I figured that probably as much as 87.6% of the bouts that I lose (loose ??? now I'm confused...) are lost because I was not focused enough.

I also found that being civil and nice and all smiling to my opponent doesn't help me get my focus back. It's actually the opposite that happens.

Of course I have had the occasional tournament where I "clowned" my way to the finals (basically either pissing my opponents off or making them laugh so hard that they loose (lose???) their focus.

But in general, when I drop my mask on my face, I become a killer for the rest of the bout. It's like an instant switch. As soon as the mask is down, I don't know who's in front of me. It's just a piece of meat that I have to stab. When I remove my mask, I see my best friend in front of me, I smile and congratulate him on a great bout.
No matter what the outcome is.

But if you want to win a bout, during the bout, you don't play nice.

**achilleus** · 08-22-2002 10:07 AM

Deja vu.

I think we've discussed this topic, with our idealistic friend Dart, at length before. Acknowledging touches, the meaning of honor, etc...

**135711** · 08-22-2002 03:31 PM

i think he meant that he may recognize that his competitive edge is best expressed on the local level. it's like shooting baskets in your driveway with the neighborhood gang, it's fun, no one gets a medal, but they would never give it up. the chivarly thing, i don't think it was ever mentioned to us in the past like in a lesson plan or something, it's about the correct master disciple relationship. a student should seek out a fencing master who he wants to emulate. ideally, he or she would be an excellent fencer, a compassionate teacher, and one whose personal life is serene, peaceful and demonstrates a solid family with strong family values, who eschew crime, criminal activity, and who participate in humanitarian activities outside of the home. Those people, by their example are honorable and civil. I have only met a very few people like that.

**achilleus** · 08-22-2002 07:05 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by 135711:
i think he meant that he may recognize that his competitive edge is best expressed on the local level. it's like shooting baskets in your driveway with the neighborhood gang, it's fun, no one gets a medal, but they would never give it up. <hr /></blockquote>I can't speak for him, or what he meant to say. What he wrote expressed the feeling that he would not enjoy competing at a level where people come to win, not be nice.

And really, I play ball with the gang, it's about the same as going to a local tournament. Which means not really competitive, compared to a world cup or national event.

This isn't a bad thing. Not everyone is meant to compete at the top levels, in any or all aspects of life. Otherwise everyone would a top fencer, executive, etc...

[ 08-22-2002, 11:08 PM: Message edited by: achilleus ]

**achilleus** · 08-22-2002 07:13 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by veeco:

Fencing is a mental sport. I figured that probably as much as 87.6% of the bouts that I lose (loose ??? now I'm confused...) are lost because I was not focused enough.<hr /></blockquote>That's fascinating, especially because I've calculated that 94.87% of the bouts that I win are won becuase my opponent lost his focus.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

**D'Artagnan1673** · 08-23-2002 07:56 AM

Hmm..... all of this talk is forcing me to do a great deal of soul searching.

The fact of the matter is that I love to win. As I remember, my finest tennis match was one in which I wore a killer face. Someone in the stands had made a loud remark which insulted me to a large degree. In responce I put on the killer face that Vecco was talking about. I think I actually scared the guy on the other side of the court. His teamates remarked that I looked like I was going to go over there and kill him. I was 100% focused on running him all over the court and I don't think I made but a few errors the rest of the match.

I ran into the problem that people misunderstood me sometime ago, and I think its happening again. I must be different but I feel I can be friendly and try to kill someone at the same time. I had a bout where I was yelling quite a bit, you know like ( <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> inq.) Allez, Eh La and so forth. Well, my opponent thinks I'm yelling Lays as in the potato chip. The next touch, he launches an attack and yells "Frito!" I was so taken back by this strange yell that I pretty much let him run me through. I pulled my mask off after the touch and laughed with him and the croud watching. When I came back En Garde, I was back to my highly aggressive style running the poor bloke to the end of the strip before landing the touch.

Point being, I feel that I can smile, salute and laugh with my opponents in between points and go back to competitive mode during the point. Now when it came to the championship bout, I was all action and no show. Things got real sober when we were fighting for 1st place.

Anyway, I guess all I am saying is that I do like to win and be competive, but I feel that at least during the early DE's, I can keep my composure and still be fun. Like I said, when it came to the finals, I was all mental and didn't bother with anything else. When I am at the club, we enjoy our bouts and salute and bang our epees on theri head when the other makes a good touch or excellent defencive move.

[ 08-23-2002, 11:57 AM: Message edited by: D'Artagnan1673 ]

**achilleus** · 08-23-2002 09:12 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by D'Artagnan1673:

Point being, I feel that I can smile, salute and laugh with my opponents in between points and go back to competitive mode during the point. Now when it came to the championship bout, I was all action and no show. Things got real sober when we were fighting for 1st place.

Anyway, I guess all I am saying is that I do like to win and be competive, but I feel that at least during the early DE's, I can keep my composure and still be fun. Like I said, when it came to the finals, I was all mental and didn't bother with anything else. When I am at the club, we enjoy our bouts and salute and bang our epees on theri head when the other makes a good touch or excellent defencive move.<hr /></blockquote>At stronger more competitive tournaments, you need to be focused all the time, otherwise you won't make the final. And for me, I enjoy a bout more when my opponent and I try to kill each other. But then again, I hate it when my opponent bangs his weapon on my mask. The only person allowed to do that is my coach, and then only during a lesson.

**D'Artagnan1673** · 08-23-2002 10:28 AM

Oh I'd never bang my weapon on the mask of a unknown or not well known opponent. That is only for people that I've fenced with for years and we are close friends.

**135711** · 08-23-2002 04:47 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by achilleus:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by 135711:
i think he meant that he may recognize that his competitive edge is best expressed on the local level. it's like shooting baskets in your driveway with the neighborhood gang, it's fun, no one gets a medal, but they would never give it up. <hr /></blockquote>I can't speak for him, or what he meant to say. What he wrote expressed the feeling that he would not enjoy competing at a level where people come to win, not be nice.

And really, I play ball with the gang, it's about the same as going to a local tournament. Which means not really competitive, compared to a world cup or national event.

This isn't a bad thing. Not everyone is meant to compete at the top levels, in any or all aspects of life. Otherwise everyone would a top fencer, executive, etc...<hr /></blockquote>Did he say he did not want to compete at a high level? or did he say he would rather compete with people who were also nice? as for your mask, i hope you don't fence epee, we wouldn't want to rattle your cage too much!

[ 08-23-2002, 08:49 PM: Message edited by: 135711 ]

**MikeHarm** · 08-23-2002 05:45 PM

Why would trying to win and competing at your best conflict with having emotional and self control on the strip?

**achilleus** · 08-23-2002 10:02 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by 135711:
[QUOTE] Did he say he did not want to compete at a high level? or did he say he would rather compete with people who were also nice? as for your mask, i hope you don't fence epee, we wouldn't want to rattle your cage too much!<hr /></blockquote>D'art said:
<blockquote>quote:<hr /> All I have to say is that if you act like this all the time, then I am happy not to fence with you. I enjoy the friendly competitiveness that my club has. <hr /></blockquote>If anyone is going to go to competitions, you don't get to choose who you compete with. I play ball with the gang because I like the relaxed atmosphere. If you like the relaxed fun atmosphere, don't go to the world cup. You can't have it both ways.

And I fence epee, but the mask hit I am referring to is the one done after the action that is merely annoying. At least if the person were trying to score, it would have a meaningful purpose.

**reptile** · 08-24-2002 12:02 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />
For the most part, the fencers I've met are honorable people. You don't generally hear (especially in the news) that Fencer X got busted for drugs, rape or murder. Of course, it's still a possibility.<hr /></blockquote>It was enough of a shock for me when sexual harassment of children became a topic in the fencing world. Such incidents are really bad.
They worry me more than tetrahydrocannabinol.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />

[ 08-24-2002, 04:04 AM: Message edited by: reptile ]

**Sildar** · 08-24-2002 10:28 PM

There must be some awareness of honesty and civility in order for any sport to remain legitimate.

If we agree that the purpose of a competition is to determine who is the best fencer, then to truly find that out everyone present must want to know who legitimately won each touch, and not be giving points away to a fencer who hit the floor, or threw a temper tantrum because he wanted ROW for a simultaneous touch. If you let the ref give you touches you didn't earn, you don't really know who is the better fencer that day.

If one simply wants to get first place and be on the cover of a fencing publication, then one should accept touches one didn't earn, demand ROW whether you think you had it or not, bribe the director, take some uppers, and put a hidden switch on the body cord.

There is an important difference between wanting to be the best fencer and wanting to win first place. Honesty is crucial to the former and irrelevant to the latter; it all depends on which one is your goal.

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