On the subject of honor and civility in fencing

[achilleus]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Helvetica, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Helvetica, Arial">Originally posted by Sildar:
<strong> There must be some awareness of honesty and civility in order for any sport to remain legitimate.

If we agree that the purpose of a competition is to determine who is the best fencer, then to truly find that out everyone present must want to know who legitimately won each touch, and not be giving points away to a fencer who hit the floor, or threw a temper tantrum because he wanted ROW for a simultaneous touch. If you let the ref give you touches you didn't earn, you don't really know who is the better fencer that day.

If one simply wants to get first place and be on the cover of a fencing publication, then one should accept touches one didn't earn, demand ROW whether you think you had it or not, bribe the director, take some uppers, and put a hidden switch on the body cord.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Helvetica, Arial">Good comment about honesty and civilty in sports. That's very true. Sports wouldn't be sports if everyone cheated and lied.

But I disagree on what that implies. Not complimenting your opponent during the bout is not an offence to civility and honesty. And neither is playing the ref, that's part of the game that's seen in all sports.

Michael Jordan's shot on Byron Russell to clinch his sixth NBA title, Jordan clearly pushed off Russell. Should have been a foul, if the ref called it. Instead, that clip was shown in slow-mo numerous times over as Jordan's last shot. Until he started playing for the Wizards.

In the Women World Cup soccer, the US goalie stepped foward before the Chinese player kicked the ball. The goalie made the one key save that gave the US their victory. After the game, the goalie said that she had indeed stepped foward, that she was playing the ref.

The list goes on. It's part of the game.

To me dishonesty is knowingly hitting the floor (in epee) and claiming the touch. Or rigging your lame so that it registers off target. That's dishonest. Accepting what the ref calls, that's just part of the game.

Insulting someone is lack of civility. Throwing your equipment around, refusing to shake hands, that's lack of civility. Arguing with the ref, especially if you believe what you're arguing for, is also part of the game.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Helvetica, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Helvetica, Arial">Originally posted by Sildar:
<strong>
There is an important difference between wanting to be the best fencer and wanting to win first place. Honesty is crucial to the former and irrelevant to the latter; it all depends on which one is your goal. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Helvetica, Arial">I think you mean to say best person, not fencer. A fencer is someone who hits another person with a sword, either blunt or sharp. There is no requirement for honesty in that definition.

[Sildar]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Helvetica, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Helvetica, Arial">Originally posted by achilleus:

But I disagree on what that implies. Not complimenting your opponent during the bout is not an offence to civility and honesty. And neither is playing the ref, that's part of the game that's seen in all sports.[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Helvetica, Arial">Fair enough; playing to the rules is part of every sport. I didn't think I was implying otherwise.

But I think we have all seen fencers who come to the strip and put more energy into arguing with the director than they put into their fencing. It seems a little backwards to me, as when I go to a tournament, I'm there to fence, not to argue, and I won't dispute a call unless I think I have a legitimate reason to do so.

[Sildar]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Helvetica, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Helvetica, Arial">Originally posted by achilleus:
<strong>I think you mean to say best person, not fencer. A fencer is someone who hits another person with a sword, either blunt or sharp. There is no requirement for honesty in that definition.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Helvetica, Arial">I think that there is. I was trying to say that the best athlete is one who recognizes their own faults and accepts responsibility for them, rather than denying they have them for the sake of their ego. You cannot improve, after all, if you truly believe you have no flaws. Thus, to become the best fencer, you have to be honest with yourself. If I blame the ref whenever I lose a touch, I'm putting responsibility for the error on someone else and absolving myself of any flaw.

[achilleus]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Helvetica, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Helvetica, Arial">Originally posted by Sildar:
<strong>[QUOTE]
Fair enough; playing to the rules is part of every sport.
I didn't think I was implying otherwise.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Helvetica, Arial">Sorry, it's just that this topic of accepting touches, and complimenting your opponents has come up more than once, and it get's me going... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Helvetica, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Helvetica, Arial">Originally posted by Sildar:
<strong>[QUOTE]But I think we have all seen fencers who come to the strip and put more energy into arguing with the director than they put into their fencing. It seems a little backwards to me, as when I go to a tournament, I'm there to fence, not to argue, and I won't dispute a call unless I think I have a legitimate reason to do so. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Helvetica, Arial">I know I have seen these fencers, although the don't really attend national or international events. These fencers are more common at the local events and thankfully, they usually get knocked out early.

<small>[ 08-25-2002, 04:10 PM: Message edited by: achilleus ]</small>

[achilleus]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Helvetica, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Helvetica, Arial">Originally posted by Sildar:
<strong>[QUOTE]I think that there is. I was trying to say that the best athlete is one who recognizes their own faults and accepts responsibility for them, rather than denying they have them for the sake of their ego. You cannot improve, after all, if you truly believe you have no flaws. Thus, to become the best fencer, you have to be honest with yourself. If I blame the ref whenever I lose a touch, I'm putting responsibility for the error on someone else and absolving myself of any flaw.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Helvetica, Arial">Good point, however, I think you're confusing two separate issues (or perhaps I'm confused). Being honest in competition, as in not cheating, is completely separate from being honest with oneself. All the top fencers I've met realize they have weaknesses and seek to improve on them. None believe they are invincible, however they do have extremely high confidence in themselves and their actions (and this is why some of the top fencers argue in the heat of the moment). While they all are able to examine their game and improve, some are very good at cheating, and have no problem doing so when they need to.