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seltzerwater · 09-06-2006, 10:47 PM

Let's say you have a Y10 fencer who's turns 10 in November Season starts August 1st? What is the last possible date he can fence Y10? Is it December 31st of the end of fencing season of his tenth birthday ? Or can he compete up to the day before he turns 11 in Y10 category? Thanks for verification.

fencerbill · 09-06-2006, 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seltzerwater

Let's say you have a Y10 fencer who's turns 10 in November Season starts August 1st? What is the last possible date he can fence Y10? Is it December 31st of the end of fencing season of his tenth birthday ? Or can he compete up to the day before he turns 11 in Y10 category? Thanks for verification.

If you refer to chart for eligibility for age group fencing, the chart refers to the year of birth. Basically, if you are eligible on August 1, you remain eligible throught the season until the following July 31.

It is different for Cadet and Junior because the cycle ends with the World Junior/Cadet Championship which is around Easter. They get around this by having the fall/winter qualifiers for the US February JO Championships defined as Under 20 and Under 17. The Summer Championships are the first Event in the next cycle and are defined as Under 19 and Under 16.

For a weird reason previously described in another thread Veterans Fencing eligibility depends on the first day of the month in which the Vets World Championships are competed.

Inquartata · 09-07-2006, 05:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fencerbill

For a weird reason previously described in another thread Veterans Fencing eligibility depends on the first day of the month in which the Vets World Championships are competed.

So someone who turned 50 before September of this year won't be eligible until next year? In effect, the 50-59 category becomes 51-60 for everyone whose birthday is not after the WCs?

oiuyt · 09-07-2006, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inquartata

So someone who turned 50 before September of this year won't be eligible until next year? In effect, the 50-59 category becomes 51-60 for everyone whose birthday is not after the WCs?

No, you're misunderstanding.

Take the 2007 Vet Worlds. Go to the beginning of that month. That's who's eligible for that competition. Vet Worlds is handled weirdly (ie differently than how everything else in fencing is handled).

-B

mlr2fence · 09-07-2006, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seltzerwater

Let's say you have a Y10 fencer who's turns 10 in November Season starts August 1st? What is the last possible date he can fence Y10? Is it December 31st of the end of fencing season of his tenth birthday ? Or can he compete up to the day before he turns 11 in Y10 category? Thanks for verification.

The youth age group categories go by birth year. For this season Y10 is 1996-1999. If a fencer is born in these years they are Y10 eligible all season, even if they turn 11.
Since its by birth year its tough being the "end of year birthday". The poor child born Dec 31 is only 1 day older than the Jan 1 kid but yet they always age out a year sooner. This is really tough as kids grow where that one year can make a tremendous difference. It would be interesting to see the birth month of the kids (up to juniors) to see if its skewed to earlier in the year birthdays because of the potential discouragement (and subsequent dropping out of fencing) of always having to compete against kids that could be almost as much as a year older. Also, to see if those on the NRPS are likewise skewed to early in year BDs.

Philistine · 09-07-2006, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oiuyt

No, you're misunderstanding.

Take the 2007 Vet Worlds. Go to the beginning of that month. That's who's eligible for that competition. Vet Worlds is handled weirdly (ie differently than how everything else in fencing is handled).

Let me just confirm my understanding. I turn 40 in a few weeks. My understanding is that for any US competition (including NAC's) after my birthday, I'll be eligible for Veterans. Am I right in this?

--Philistine

Inquartata · 09-07-2006, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oiuyt

No, you're misunderstanding.

Take the 2007 Vet Worlds. Go to the beginning of that month. That's who's eligible for that competition. Vet Worlds is handled weirdly (ie differently than how everything else in fencing is handled).

-B

OK.

So then, a person who turns 50 in, say, August of next year would be eligible for the World Vet team.

But since he won't be able to fence in any of the 50-59 NACs this coming season, he won't be able to MAKE the team. No NACs, no points.

Right?

So in effect people are going to have to be 51 before they can possibly make the team, if their birthday is unluckily late in the year>

KD5MDK · 09-07-2006, 11:04 AM

Presumably Veteran status is determined by eligability to fence in the Vet WCs, not current age. So they would be able to fence VNACS.

oiuyt · 09-07-2006, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philistine

Let me just confirm my understanding. I turn 40 in a few weeks. My understanding is that for any US competition (including NAC's) after my birthday, I'll be eligible for Veterans. Am I right in this?

Even better, if there's a Vet event right now you're eligible, even though you are still 39. This is the other side to the issue that mlr2fence raised -- you age into vet fencing a year earlier than someone born in January.

More directly to mlr2fence's point a December birthmonth fencer ages into being 13+ a year earlier, gaining all of those nice cadet, junior, and senior competitions that make up the bulk of the calendar. Generally mlr's point is true that it's an advantage as a fencer to have a January birth, but this is at least one advantage that late-month fencers do have.

Inq- check the NAC entry form more carefully. The birth cut-offs for Vet-50 and Vet-60 reflect the World Championship eligiblity rules.

Vet 50-59: 9/1/57 – 9/2/47 (although I would have written this the other direction, the NAC form has the range in reverse chronological order (presumably to match the ages 50 and 59))
Vet 60+: Born before 9/2/47

Our hypothetical fencer who turns 50 in August, 2007 is eligible for Vet 50-59 NACs during the 2006-2007 season, despite being 48 or 49 for the entirety of that time.

There are smart people working on these things and they do occasionally catch the non-obvious flaws and get them fixed before they cause (too many) problems. :)

-B

Philistine · 09-07-2006, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oiuyt

Even better, if there's a Vet event right now you're eligible, even though you are still 39. This is the other side to the issue that mlr2fence raised -- you age into vet fencing a year earlier than someone born in January.{snip}

I figured I was probably OK for some period even before my birthday, but the first vets I'll have any chance of doing isn't until November, and since the Dec. NAC is driveable, I may end up hitting that too.

Thanks!

--Philistine

Inquartata · 09-07-2006, 11:30 AM

Thanks. If in involves arithmetic it is likely to leave me puzzled indeterminately, like a cat with a music box.

mlr2fence · 09-07-2006, 11:53 AM

The December kid may 'gain' by being able to fence Seniors, opens earlier but if they're trying to position themselves on cadet or Jr NRPS I think most would rather have that extra year, physical development, and all that stuff over being the little kid in the big 'open' pond. That one year is not that significant of a bonus when all the other years they are struggling.

I still bet that most of the 'top' kids are early month birthdays. That extra time of development is tough to consistently overcome--esp for boys, who seem to take longer to mature.

KD5MDK · 09-07-2006, 12:49 PM

Then again, they could have started fencing Y10 events a year ahead of their age-mates, and so have more experience.

Supermom · 09-07-2006, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mlr2fence

I still bet that most of the 'top' kids are early month birthdays. That extra time of development is tough to consistently overcome--esp for boys, who seem to take longer to mature.

This is in fact true. I took a little survey of the best young male fencers (i.e. those with Y14 and cadet national points) in our area and a disproportionate number have January birthdays. Sigh ... my fencer was born on Nov. 20 th. But he can say that he started fencing opens (legally) at the age of 12...

It's also true for sports other than fencing. I saw an article on exactly that somewhere recently. It noted that the vast majority of high-level male soccer players are born in January, February and March. I'll try and find a link, unless somebody else knows where that was published?

oiuyt · 09-07-2006, 01:28 PM

It's not just opens. Local 'E' and unders are senior events and fencers must be at least 13 (or on the junior NRPS). Y10/Y12 fencers ONLY have Y10/Y12 (and in the case of Y12 fencers, Y14) events, whereas those who are 13 have a significantly higher number of developmental tournaments available to them.

Still not nearly enough to balance the advantages of an extra year's (physical) maturity, but at least it's SOMETHING to put on the other side of the balance.

-B