Favero and Doha

[mifencer]

I tried searching for Favero and Doha in this section (Armory - Q & A) and couldn't find anything. Kudos to DieterS and Eigertek, making me question my next machine purchase, but until then:

1) Is anyone aware if Favero is coming out with a new chip? I looked on their site and they posted a PDF file regarding DOHA, and according to the PDF file, there are no changes http://www.favero.com/pdf/Conference...20-%20Doha.pdf. (it's highlighted in red)

2) Does anyone know if hitting on one box (i.e. Eigertek) is different/or has the potential of difference from another? (No Inquart, not 'hitting on' as in trying to pick up, but 'hitting on' as in pressing the foil point or slashing someone in saber)

Thank you,

[keith]

last I saw, here or on the UK forums, there was comment that various manufacturers were working on modifications to their machines to reduce some of the 'unforeseen' consequences of the DOHA changes (microbreaks etc).

I've not seen anything to suggest that any of these have been implimented yet....

Wonder if one of the Pauls might be lurking?

EDIT: sorry all those timing changes have been implimented by all the manufacturers. They are now just busy trying to fix them

[KD5MDK]

I believe they've been working to fixed the Leipzig timings. The outcome to that is the Doha timings, any faults of which are still being discovered.

[keith]

Ah, my bad. Should have noticed the exact specification that the on and off target contact times would be the same.

[reawl]

mifencer,

I know there was a box out there that is basically built into a metal case (the lid closes so you can transport it). I think it is/was made by Triplette. The problem is when you hit it with a sabre it'll set off a colored light for you! Not so bad if the case is on a table a good distance from the strip; but pretty bad if it's hanging on a pole at eye level right on the edge of the strip.

[DieterS]

Yes, the timings between the FIE Leipzig timings and the FIE Doha timings are different--I believe that all manufacturers have incorporated the latest changes into their new machines. I don't know how much it costs to upgrade the other machines, but it's free with Eigertek.

And yes, there are subtle differences between behaviors of various scoring machines based on the interpretation of the FIE requirements and the frequency of unrecorded touches. The latest Eclipse upgrade has reduced these frustrating non-touches dramatically.

Dieter
Eigertek

[keropie]

Alas, that's equally frustrating in its own way. Not to blame you, of course, I just wish all manufacturers would agree on a primary logic. And sure, if I got to pick, it would either be yours (or something very similar), or a big 'thumbs' up to the FIE and have every scoring machine in the world made on the pre-Leipzig timings. That would simply be hilarious to me, watching the FIE decide between old timings and steam for their events ^^

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by reawl

mifencer,

I know there was a box out there that is basically built into a metal case (the lid closes so you can transport it). I think it is/was made by Triplette. The problem is when you hit it with a sabre it'll set off a colored light for you! Not so bad if the case is on a table a good distance from the strip; but pretty bad if it's hanging on a pole at eye level right on the edge of the strip.

I believe the case is plastic, it's the clasps on the case that are metal (and, for whatever reason, connected to the scoring circuitry). The grey case version of the machine now sold in black plastic cases (without metal clasps).

-B

[KD5MDK]

Originally Posted by oiuyt

(and, for whatever reason, connected to the scoring circuitry).
-B

Obviously it's so you can test the circuit without your opponent having hooked up yet. While they're still fumbling with their gear and looking like a fool, you simply approach the machine and give it a light tap to prove that the system works.


(Efficacy of this system in checking for your opponent's crocodile clip being attached to his lame and working is left to the reader.)

[DieterS]

Originally Posted by keropie

Alas, that's equally frustrating in its own way. Not to blame you, of course, I just wish all manufacturers would agree on a primary logic. And sure, if I got to pick, it would either be yours (or something very similar), or a big 'thumbs' up to the FIE and have every scoring machine in the world made on the pre-Leipzig timings. That would simply be hilarious to me, watching the FIE decide between old timings and steam for their events ^^

It's definitely not the manufactures' fault! The FIE timing requirements are frequently vague, ambiguous, or leave out information (such as tolerances). This makes them very difficult to interpret.

I've heard that several manufacturer's did actually consider doing what you suggested at one time.

Dieter
Eigertek

[keropie]

I certainly wasn't blaming the manufacturers. I just find it interesting that the FIE 'standard' for scoring machines allows such leeway that the question of logic to handle 'microbreaks' is so up in the air. I'd think they'd want to nail down either a legal or not legal in those regards. Oh well

[DieterS]

Originally Posted by keropie

I certainly wasn't blaming the manufacturers. I just find it interesting that the FIE 'standard' for scoring machines allows such leeway that the question of logic to handle 'microbreaks' is so up in the air. I'd think they'd want to nail down either a legal or not legal in those regards. Oh well

Yes, indeed! The problem with "microbreaks" in foil, which are actually "microcontacts" or "microbounces," is that nobody anticipated the noise in the contacts. In the earlier days of scoring machines, the electrical circuitry did not detect it, but today's digital circuitry does. For example, the Eclipse detects events as short as 1/1,000th of a second.

The FIE apparently does not consult with competent electrical engineers, so they will continue to have problems in this area. What Eigertek has done is make the FIE regulations practical for fencers without violating either the letter or the spirit of the FIE regulations.

Dieter
Eigertek

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by KD5MDK

Obviously it's so you can test the circuit without your opponent having hooked up yet. While they're still fumbling with their gear and looking like a fool, you simply approach the machine and give it a light tap to prove that the system works.

A feature already available by shorting one's own blade to one's own lamé and checking the grounding light...

A history of electrically-connected clasps, unlabelled display lights (for weapon selection in the club-range model), randomly dropped touches especially on simultaneous hits, machines that go kablooie when the transformer is plugged in not perfectly correctly, transformers that overheat when left plugged in, even if the machine is turned off, etc. And people wonder why the armorers (and fencers) hate the TCA scoring machines.

-B

[keropie]

Originally Posted by DieterS

The FIE apparently does not consult with competent electrical engineers, so they will continue to have problems in this area.

Well, the FIE seems to consult people, but not necessarily listen to them (the medical commission had worries about the visor masks, SEMI was worried about 15ms depression time, but the FIE went right on ahead with both). Alas, asking for an expert opinion and then pretending you know better. I always hate it when people do that.

Originally Posted by DieterS

What Eigertek has done is make the FIE regulations practical for fencers without violating either the letter or the spirit of the FIE regulations.

Dieter
Eigertek

And don't think we don't appreciate it. I just wish that was the modus operandi for manufacturers, so there was something consistent to work with, you know? Oh well