All about parry prime and repost.

[luv2fence]

Many fencers in our club use parry prime repost.
I would like to learn it for myself, and learn how
to defeat it.

In epee, my coach showed it to me for in-fighting.
It seems to pull the tendons in my hand and wrist:
no damage or pain just feels unconfortable.
The tip of the blade does not want to come "in".
Do you guys turn your weak (off) side to your
opponent when you do this? It seems like this
would help.

luv2fence

[seven6ty]

Ah, just got a lesson from Yves Auriol today who had something smart to say about it, a parry primes should only be used as a last resort. I see many, many kids using it when they really shouldn't even be thinking about it. You definently shouldn't be using it unless you're closing in on your opponent into a very, very close distance. You don't need to really rotate your body very much at all, and definently not your legs, unless for distance adjustments.

Just think of it like you're checking your watch, that was another nice explanation I recieved from another coach. Lift your weapon hand up, infront of your face, so you're looking at your wrist. You'll have your hand up a little high, then just push it forward, into your opponent, watching the tip to make sure you have it aimed well.

[dramamine]

agreed, it's probably used far too much, although sometimes during infighting it is a convenient choice if you dont nkow where the blade is (eek)

just practice, preferably with a coach or experienced partner, it will get easier. it might help to learn to do it as a ceding parry from an attack with the blade, that helped me .

[rcmatthews]

At least in sabre, the prime has one primary application. If you are parried while making a flank cut, and your opponent ripostes to your belly, it is better to use a prime than a quarte, in my opinion.

[Mr Epee]

At least in sabre, the prime has one primary application. If you are parried while making a flank cut, and your opponent ripostes to your belly, it is better to use a prime than a quarte, in my opinion.

Gee willikers... in saber? Really?

The fact that you have found a modern application of prime in saber is sincerely hilarious.

what part of "in epee" did you not understand?

Pay attention please?


Ok...

When performing the parry Prime try making the action so that you would be looking at your watch... assuming that you are wearing a watch on your right hand.

The riposte should come into the flank of your coach/opponent.

I just read 760's post... we have the same description of the action, but I'm going to disagree with Yves.. for a moment... prime should considered a parry of final action... not last resort.

[mrbiggs]

Do you guys turn your weak (off) side to your
opponent when you do this? It seems like this
would help.

It helps, but make sure you don't turn past the lines of the strip. Epee refs, in my experience, are very good about calling turning the back in this situation.

So the short answer is "not much, if at all."

[ktownfarmboy]

Hmm... I'm not so sure about the watch part... Often when the prime doesn't arrive quickly enough the opponent can find a point near the four line... Although there is no fail safe prime... I would suggest you treat it more as a close-out blow... Most importantly... I wouldn't be concentrating on a prime unless I failed to keep distance or succeed in a basic parry, disengage, reposte.. but then again... that's my strategy... Some folks tend to like the fancy stuff...

[rcmatthews]

Pay attention please?

Sorry, this question mark really confuses me. I am not quite sure what you are trying to say.

In fact, the title of the thread is "all about prime parry and reposte". The epee part was only a qualification about one particular instance. My comments refer to the "all about the prime parry" part.

In fact, my coach has me use the prime in this instance in lessons. I don't think I would use it in actual fencing. I would rather choose to retreat and go for a counter-attack or, having gained enough time, use a 4.

However, if there is a place to use a 1 in sabre, the case I described is it.

[Inquartata]

I am not quite sure what you are trying to say.

He's trying to say he's feeling snippy* and has decreed that this will be an All Epee Thread, no other discussion allowed. ( Thread drift vexes him, you see. Most things do. )

At any rate, you are correct. I have never been able to make prime work for me, but my coach uses it to good effect on occasion. Albeit with the new timing riposting from it can be problematic.


*Ever read the parable of the Scorpion and the Fox?

[rory]

I occasionally use prime in foil. Just to keep Mr E happy, I suspect that both my tactics listed below would be effective in epee also.

If you can make your opponent commit to a deep attack by lunge or fleche, and you know that they're going to finish in quarte, prime with a step in is a very effective surprise tactic. Parry prime as you step in, then riposte to belly (don't flick, it won't come up now, place it on with a "push" down).

I don't *parry* prime very often during infighting: I have long arms and if I get in close I find making it into prime unwieldy. I do quite often *riposte* in prime though: a deep parry of quarte or sixte, step in, foil over the top and slam it on by reversing the shoulders. Very handy.

[sabreur]

Prime works as a second intention against a belly/chest cut. It is less effective IMNSHO (because it is big and slow) as a reaction parry.

I have gotten it to work in training against an opponent who likes to try to cut flank in a simultaneous situation--I step forward, and take a really big, obvious seconde, then strike-parry prime, riposte head when he changes lines to cut chest. It's very amusing, and I might try it sometime in competition--the problem with it is that you have to have an opponent who actually pays a little attention to what you are doing and reacts to it....

A lot of foil fencers had an addiction to prime back in the late 70s--I don't know why. I remember one of the foilists on my college team desperately chasing an opponent down the strip, trying to pick up his blade in prime... There was a legendary final touch in a world championship in the 70s where one fencer made a really long, deep, fast lunge and the other guy stepped in with a sweeping prime, picked up the blade and hit with one of those little flicking ripostes to the flank...used to be a popular poster in salles.

[rcmatthews]

Oh, one more instance of actual use just for you Mr. E.

The circle prime take. As I understand it this used to be fairly popular in the days of dry sabre. It's very hard to disengage a circle 1 take, and you can easily move into a parry 5 if needed. If you are having difficulties taking someone's line, this is a very effective way to go.

[Inquartata]

That's right, poke the bear...

[luv2fence]

In our club, various fencers use it in foil and
sabre. For this reason, I am interested even
if I do not use it for those weapons. I have
also seen it used at a local tornament, mens
foil final, to good effect.

Currently, in epee, Prime is one small part
of the typical lesson, but it served to remind
me how little I knew about Prime, even though
I had seen it used many times.

The many comments have been very helpful.

luv2fence

[piste off]

I have seen Fabrice Jannet use a modified prime (at least I think that is what is was) against left handed opponents. It was at a much greater distance than normal.

Starting from the outside 6 line, he turned his guard over... then with the bell high and the point low he came across the opponent's blade (like "checking his watch", but not as extreme) and then flicked his blade up to score on his opponent's chest (the blade was bending down on the hit, opposite of a normal thrust).

He made it look easy, but then makes everything look easy.

Rick

[Craig]

I have seen Fabrice Jannet use a modified prime (at least I think that is what is was) against left handed opponents. It was at a much greater distance than normal.

Starting from the outside 6 line, he turned his guard over... then with the bell high and the point low he came across the opponent's blade (like "checking his watch", but not as extreme) and then flicked his blade up to score on his opponent's chest (the blade was bending up on the hit, opposite of a normal thrust).

In foil pre-timings change that was one of my favorite touches against lefties. One of my leftie club mates and I would often do bouts where the goal was to see how many of the prime-flicks we could score.

Craig

[RITFencing]

Question for the OP: are you using a french or pistol grip? Using a french can complicate matters somewhat if you don't move the pommel correctly (if you aren't posting.) It should slip down off your wrist on the same side as your pinky; otherwise it can get caught on your hand/wrist, prevent you from pulling off the prime and be really uncomfortable to boot.

[sertafu]

In epee, I have started making sinister use of the prime against righties very often. Zivkovic or Hungarian grips are really helpful for getting the hand into a good position.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Use it, don't abuse it.

[Mr Epee]

Oh, one more instance of actual use just for you Mr. E.

The circle prime take. As I understand it this used to be fairly popular in the days of dry sabre.

The fact that you have found a modern application of prime in saber is sincerely hilarious.

Do saber fencer read gud? eh?