Correct position of tape on foil - grub screws

[PeterGustafsson]

Hi!


I, epee specialist, recently bought a wired foil blade for the club. It was taped over the entirety of the foil point base, covering the grub screws. When one depresses the tip, it seems to move fine.

Is this the right way to tape a foil? I was under the impression that one should have small slots in the tape so that the grub screws did not touch the tape.


Have a nice time!

Peter Gustafsson

[Purple Fencer]

It's correct. You want tape covering everything from the top of the barrel to a max of 15cm from the base of teh barrel.

[oiuyt]

Specifically you do NOT want any gaps for the screws. And gap that exposes metal is a potential problem as a short between that metal and the metal in the lamé being hit will result in no light. Avoiding such shorts is the entire purpose of the taping. Note that unlike in epee the screws in foil don't move when the tip is depressed. Tape on them doesn't in any way impeded the functioning of the weapon.

-B

[DHCJr]

Yes. The entire part of the blade and barrel should be entirely insulated up to 15 cm from end. The tip itself should not.

The best way to do this is, first tape from just below the grub screws about 5". This does 2 things, first it allows you to get at the grub screws without removing all the tape and secondly it helps keep the barrel tight.

A second piece of tape goes around the barrel completing the insulation. Because the German screws stick up, I put a third piece of tape about an 1/8" wide over the screws and under the second piece of tape.

The reason for the insulation is the barrel/blade acts as the return wire for the electricity. When the tip is depressed there is a break in the circuit. If there was no insulation and the tip was depressed against a lame' the lame' would also be touching the barrel/blade keeping the circuit from breaking. Thus with no insulation or poor insulation, the likelyhood of getting a touch would be slim.

[Frater_Frag]

Besides, having the screws covered by tape prevents you from losing them!

[oiuyt]

Yeah, but if he loses his screws he'll have a better excuse for escaping back to epee. :)

-B

[brtech]

Originally Posted by DHCJr

A second piece of tape goes around the barrel completing the insulation. Because the German screws stick up, I put a third piece of tape about an 1/8" wide over the screws and under the second piece of tape.

I've seen tips done this way, and often wondered why. You have an extra layer of insulation around the screws, which are wider than any other part of the barrel.

Does this do anything for you that an extra layer of tape around the whole barrel wouldn't do? Seems like extra work for no gain, but I must be missing something.

I usually cut a piece of 3/4" tape for the wrap around the barrel. It's long enough to have two layers around the screws, and the width covers the barrel. A fellow armorer supplies me with some nice tape which is fiberglass reinforced, and the right adhesive properties which I use for the tip. I always start just covering a screw, so that if I've cut it a little short, I have the highest probability I'll cover the screws twice.

If 2 layers is enough, more is NOT better. You can have so much tape that the hole in the weight that the tip is inserted too hangs up on the tape, and then you get a failure when you shouldn't.

Use scissors to cut the tape unless you always get a clean tear. You don't want any "filaments" of tape hanging around to get trapped between the tip and the barrel. You want to use some care to make sure the tape covers the entire barrel right up to, but never over the gap between the tip and the barrel.

Oh, and make sure the surface is clean; no bits of left over tape, or adhesive residue. Don't need to be fanantic about it, but gunk is gunk. I like an alcohol prep pad to clean the end of the blade and the barrel. Pay attention to the grub screws. If you accumulate tape residue in the slot, you increase the probabilty of not being able to get it out when you need to.

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by brtech

Does this do anything for you that an extra layer of tape around the whole barrel wouldn't do? Seems like extra work for no gain, but I must be missing something.

The concept, as I understand it, is that too many layers of tape will make the barrel too thick, and a thin weight will fail it.

(and the little piece of tape on the grub screws doesn't affect the width too much.)

[KD5MDK]

As brtech himself put it:

If 2 layers is enough, more is NOT better. You can have so much tape that the hole in the weight that the tip is inserted too hangs up on the tape, and then you get a failure when you shouldn't.

[luv2fence]

I was testing my foil with a small test box,
and noticed that the light would go off when
the tip was pressed. OK.

But wait!

If I pressed the tip all the way to the barrel,
the light went on again.

So, should some tape extend past the barrel?
Or, should a few small pieces of tape be put
on the end of the barrel.
Here, the idea is to insulate the barrel from the tip.

luv2fence

[KD5MDK]

If the tip, when fully depressed, is completing the B-C circuit again through the blade, then you have a problem indeed. However, rather than stick pieces of tape on the top of the barrel, where their adhesive can work its way into the barrel and gum things up, I'd clean your tip and try to figure out why it isn't insulated when depressed.

[rory]

I've now taken to extending the tip tape up past the end of the barrel, just a little.

"Why?" I hear you ask. Well, I've found that it greatly increases the chances of hits registering under the new foil timings.

I think what happens is, without the extra tape, fibres of the opponent's lame can get between the tip and barrel when you hit other than dead straight. These obviously conduct, and the circuit shorts out briefly, preventing the light coming on.

It's particularly obvious with flicks - which tend to hit at a slight angle. Without the extra tape, my flicks are much less likely to come on - with it, I can land at least 75% now.

As KD5MDK states though, tip tape adhesive is gummy - so you need to make sure you actually maintain your weapons regularly, keep those tips nice and clean and smooth.

[brtech]

Originally Posted by mrbiggs

The concept, as I understand it, is that too many layers of tape will make the barrel too thick, and a thin weight will fail it.

(and the little piece of tape on the grub screws doesn't affect the width too much.)

The extra strip of tape is a layer. Since it is covering the part that sticks out the farthest, it's making up the worst case width.

What I don't understand is why an 1/8" wide piece of tape over the screws is better than just an extra turn of the full width tape. The difference would be that the rest of the barrel, not just 1/8" around the screws has an extra layer. I don't see that as a problem.

[luv2fence]

I tested all 3 of my working foils.
Only that one misbehaved when
the tip was fully depressed.

By inspecting the tape job, I could see that
I had taped it. In addition, I now recall being very
precise, to NOT allow tape to overlap the end
of the barrel.

I thought I was doing a good job, at the time.
So, now, I just retaped it with a slight tape
overlap past the end of the barrel and it works.

I will shim-test it and weight-test it at the club,
next time.

Thanks for replies.

luv2fence

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by luv2fence

I will shim-test it and weight-test it at the club,
next time.

You shim test your foils? Isn't that covered in the Armory article in the recent issue of AF?

-B

[DHCJr]

Originally Posted by brtech

The extra strip of tape is a layer. Since it is covering the part that sticks out the farthest, it's making up the worst case width.

What I don't understand is why an 1/8" wide piece of tape over the screws is better than just an extra turn of the full width tape. The difference would be that the rest of the barrel, not just 1/8" around the screws has an extra layer. I don't see that as a problem.

If that was all they put, you are right. The problem is people think if two layers, three would be better and 4 even better and as Mrbiggs stated that can be a problem. With the 1/8" tape considering it is not the easiest thing to do people do not overtape.

[DHCJr]

Let us talk about luv2fence problem. We will need to talk about the design of the tip. The tip has 3 layers. There is the tip with it's shaft, an insulating layer and the outer shell.

Since when testing you do not involve a lame' the tape is not the issue.

Over the years, I have found 4 posible problems.

1) There are some weights that are not insulated on the inside. When pushed down fully, it can tilt, thus touching the side of the blade and completing the circuit.

2) The insulation can be cracked and thus allow for connection between the two layers.

3) This I have mostly seen on the French style and that is too long of screws. To test this back off the screws a 1/2 - 1 turn and see if there still the problem.

4) This last is the most rare. The barrel may be too short from the end to the screw holes. The ring holding the screws may come in contact with the top of the tip. I would look at the first 3.

Edit: There is a shim test for Foil (M.11.4), but it is not used as the reason for the test was to compensate for the slowness of relay boxes. There are not too many relay boxes around.

[KD5MDK]

Note that luv2fence talks about pressing the tip all the way to the barrel. Therefore, I think he's using his finger to do it, which makes your possibility #1 less likely, unless he has conductive hands. However, it is a very important thing to remember to check for, so thanks for including it.

My guess is 60% likelihood your #2, 30% your #3, 10% something else.

[Warrior Princess]

To conform to regulations, there must be 15cm of tape. The tape should be placed over the screws (trust me, it just makes life easier), but not high enough up on the barrel to interfear with the weight test. (If it gets sticky between the tip and the barrel, the weapon won't pass a weight test because it will not be able to return the weight as easily within the aloted period of time).

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by Warrior Princess

To conform to regulations, there must be 15cm of tape. The tape should be placed over the screws (trust me, it just makes life easier), but not high enough up on the barrel to interfear with the weight test. (If it gets sticky between the tip and the barrel, the weapon won't pass a weight test because it will not be able to return the weight as easily within the aloted period of time).

Incorrect on several counts:

The rules are WRITTEN as stating that the tape length is 15cm from the base of the barrel. In reality, it should say that the MAXIMUM length is 15cm...this is soething that has yet to be corrected in the rulebook....

Ask Donald about a certain gteam that was being a pain the arse....and demanded that the rules be followed TO THE LETTER....every weapon had multiple failures, and the first thing checked onteh foils was the length of the tape (14.9cm? FAIL!)

The tape can be any lentgh UP TO 15cm....if it's shorter, you're only hurting yourself.

as for the placement, you want tape all the way up to the top of the barrel....if you have exposed metal, it cold come into contact with the lame at the same time you land a touch....and nothing will happen because the circuit will ground out. Your opponent will thank, you.

The height up the barrel has nothing to do with interfering with the weight test...multiple wraps of tape that make the tape layer so THICK that the weight can't move DOES interfere.