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Thread: Another reffing question

  1. #1
    Senior Member Supermom's Avatar
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    Another reffing question

    In a DE bout, there is a group of fencers making a lot of noise by the side of the strip, trying to influence the director's calls (apparently the director is unaware of this). The director gives the command to fence. One of the observers calls out to one of the fencers, "(Name), look behind you!" The fencer does, reflexively, undoubtedly expecting to avoid a pending collision or object on the strip over which he might trip. There is none such, the crowd laughs, and the ref cards the fencer for turning the back on the opponent.

    a) Should the fencer have been carded?
    b) Should the observer have been carded for disrupting order?
    c) Neither?
    d) Both?

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    Senior Member RITFencing's Avatar
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    In my opinion, the person calling out to distract both fencers should be given a yellow for disturbing order on the strip, and that should be the end of the action. No cards for the fencers, any touch annulled.
    "If I were ever to challenge you to a duel, your best bet would be battle axes in a very dark basement." Misquoted from The Prisoner

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    Senior Member IHateMrPotatohead's Avatar
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    I agree whole heartedly with RIT.
    Quote Originally Posted by IHateMrPotatohead
    I can't think of anything to put down there!

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    Senior Member downunder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Supermom
    In a DE bout, there is a group of fencers making a lot of noise by the side of the strip, trying to influence the director's calls (apparently the director is unaware of this). The director gives the command to fence. One of the observers calls out to one of the fencers, "(Name), look behind you!" The fencer does, reflexively, undoubtedly expecting to avoid a pending collision or object on the strip over which he might trip. There is none such, the crowd laughs, and the ref cards the fencer for turning the back on the opponent.

    a) Should the fencer have been carded?
    b) Should the observer have been carded for disrupting order?
    c) Neither?
    d) Both?

    I would have called halt as soon as the call came out.

    I would then issue a card to the observer, the colour depending on the situation and other circumstances.

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    Senior Member RITFencing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by downunder
    the colour depending on the situation and other circumstances.
    Can you give an example of what would be a black card and what would be a yellow? I'm not quite sure as to where the line is.
    "If I were ever to challenge you to a duel, your best bet would be battle axes in a very dark basement." Misquoted from The Prisoner

    "Technical excellence is the antecedant of tactical creativity." - Nat Goodhartz

    But those things which belong neither to God nor to Caeser, feeleth free to writeth them off, for yea, they are deductable.

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    Senior Member fencerbill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RITFencing
    Can you give an example of what would be a black card and what would be a yellow? I'm not quite sure as to where the line is.
    My reaction would be:

    At 14-14 for the Gold Medal - Black Card.

    At 0-0 in the first bout of the first pool (poule?) of the day - Red Card.

    If the horse's ace who yelled it out had been previously warned, Black Card.

    There really is no Yellow Card for disturbing order. Some referees use it as an informal notice to someone on the borderline that they are close to having official action taken. Then there are the referees who, at the beginning of the bout, hand a Black Card to Arkady Burdan and ask him to hold it until needed.
    Last edited by fencerbill; 08-14-2006 at 05:02 PM.
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    Senior Member RITFencing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fencerbill
    My reaction would be:

    At 14-14 for the Gold Medal - Black Card.

    At 0-0 in the first bout of the first pool (poule?) of the day - Red Card.
    Now, this strikes me as a bit at odds with what I've always been told about reffing. Whether for cards, RoW, or antyhing else, the calls should be consistent.

    If the horse's ace who yelled it out had been previously warned, Black Card.

    There really is no Yellow Card for disturbing order. Some referees use it as an informal notice to someone on the borderline that they are close to having official action taken. Then there are the referees who, at the beginning of the bout, hand a Black Card to Arkady Burdan and ask him to hold it until needed.
    No yellow for disturbing order? For spectators, there are. It was changed a while ago because they wanted all red cards to have touches associated with them, and you can't award a touch against a spectator.
    "If I were ever to challenge you to a duel, your best bet would be battle axes in a very dark basement." Misquoted from The Prisoner

    "Technical excellence is the antecedant of tactical creativity." - Nat Goodhartz

    But those things which belong neither to God nor to Caeser, feeleth free to writeth them off, for yea, they are deductable.

  8. #8
    Senior Member keropie's Avatar
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    I would be tempted to just go straight to black, regardless. It's clearly disturbing order off strip, and it's an offense against sportsmanship. Additionally, any and all spectators would be removed to the ends of the strip or out side of the pod, depending on which I had available. I would allow one coach (recognized as a coach, either by credential or previous knowledge) to remain in the coach's zone (be that official or unofficial). There's no reason to allow someone the cheat like that.

    The only exception might be at a local/less 'important'/more relaxed event where everyone is friends. Even then I'd either go for the yellow card or at least instruct them not to do it again. And then move them to the ends of the strip.
    ^^

  9. #9
    Senior Member fencerbill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RITFencing
    No yellow for disturbing order? For spectators, there are. It was changed a while ago because they wanted all red cards to have touches associated with them, and you can't award a touch against a spectator.
    I stand corrected.

    No excuse, CRS.

    Some of us can actually admit it when we are mistaken.
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    Member suterces's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RITFencing
    Now, this strikes me as a bit at odds with what I've always been told about reffing. Whether for cards, RoW, or antyhing else, the calls should be consistent.
    I think the better question is, should the spectator be punished more for intentionally disturbing the bout (ie. purposely screwing the other fencer over in hopes of their teammate/friend getting the final touch) instead of just joking around (ie. when the bout just started, nothing is happening, and no harm was intended)? Just like an accidental corps-a-corps can result in a yellow card, but when one fencer starts running into the other on purpose, and depending on the magnitude, can result in a black card. But when do you draw the line in this situation?

    Anyway, I would warn/yellow card the spectator and move him to the end of the strip.
    "Smile, and the world will smile with you. Laugh, and they'll all think you're on drugs."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Supermom
    In a DE bout, there is a group of fencers making a lot of noise by the side of the strip, trying to influence the director's calls (apparently the director is unaware of this).
    General cheering and such is fine. "Trying to influence the referee's calls" can get you carded. I've seen it done.

    If it's getting out of hand, the referee really should deal with it sooner rather than later. Then, he doesn't get into more difficult situations like...

    Quote Originally Posted by Supermom
    The director gives the command to fence. One of the observers calls out to one of the fencers, "(Name), look behind you!"
    Wow! Intentionally trying to distract someone on the strip who is fencing. Depending on the social atmosphere of the event, that could be a black for the spectator. Even when I've seen events where "we're all friends here," and everyone is being very chatty, fencers and spectators are generally well-behaved between the fence and the halt.

    Quote Originally Posted by Supermom
    The fencer does, reflexively, undoubtedly expecting to avoid a pending collision or object on the strip over which he might trip. There is none such, the crowd laughs, and the ref cards the fencer for turning the back on the opponent.

    a) Should the fencer have been carded?
    b) Should the observer have been carded for disrupting order?
    c) Neither?
    d) Both?
    Hard to say since we weren't there.

    The way I'm imagining what you described, I'd call it like this.

    a) No. I called the halt for the distracting comment from the spectator. Everything after that was after the halt.

    b) Yes. At least a yellow. I find such a comment to be potentially dangerous and totally out of character with every fencing tournament I have attended.

    And at that point, no one is laughing at the fencer, and perhaps the crowd remembers what appropriate behavior for a fencing tournament is.
    Last edited by tbryan; 08-14-2006 at 08:07 PM.

  12. #12
    Senior Member Mr Epee's Avatar
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    If I was the ref, I would have called halt, walked up to the kid, said "hey, you've got gravy on your uniform, and then said "whooooop!!" as I flipped him in the nose - with my pointy finger.

    I think that this is hilarious.

    Yes, decorum is important, but how totally silly... it's a sporting event... not an ordination ceremony.

    Take a chill pill, folks.
    Take your time. Read carefully.

  13. #13
    Senior Member MyrddinsPrecint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Epee
    If I was the ref, I would have called halt, walked up to the kid, said "hey, you've got gravy on your uniform, and then said "whooooop!!" as I flipped him in the nose - with my pointy finger.

    I think that this is hilarious.

    Yes, decorum is important, but how totally silly... it's a sporting event... not an ordination ceremony.

    Take a chill pill, folks.
    This weekend, I saw a generally intelligent (.....ok, so, he has judgement lapses, but.... don't all teenaged males?) get hit in the back of the head in sabre THREE TIMES (that I, as an observer, counted). The distance was too close, his opponent was too out of control, but once or twice, he turned his head, thinking the action was over. (once it was because a director on another strip that sounded like his director called halt!)


    Now, he wasn't seriously hurt any of the three times. In fact, he only stopped to indicate that he'd felt anything the third time, when he DIDN'T turn his back/head at all, and still ended up hit at the base of his skull.


    But there really aren't that many place you're not protected in fencing. The back of your head is one of the biggies. Sure, in this case someone might not have gotten hurt--- the distance might have been wide, the fencers might have had self control....

    But if the person who yelled wasn't carded, they'll probably keep doing it. and eventually they'll yell in the wrong situation, and someone'll get hurt........



    That, or they'll light bagels on fire and throw them.

  14. #14
    Senior Member Mr Epee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MyrddinsPrecint
    .... snip ....
    That's all fine and good, but keep in mind that SuperMom gave ZERO context for her little story. Well, she did say it was at a fencing tournament...
    Take your time. Read carefully.

  15. #15
    Senior Member rcmatthews's Avatar
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    Question is if the person who yelled out was friends with the one they were yelling to. If not, I say thats grounds for a kick in the nuts.
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    Senior Member MyrddinsPrecint's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Epee
    That's all fine and good, but keep in mind that SuperMom gave ZERO context for her little story. Well, she did say it was at a fencing tournament...

    Which is the point. In certain cases, your response would be the one called for, but it's certainly not the appropriate default response, since in a large number of cirucumstances, it could potentially create a dangerous atmosphere......

  17. #17
    Senior Member Supermom's Avatar
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    Some context ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Epee
    That's all fine and good, but keep in mind that SuperMom gave ZERO context for her little story. Well, she did say it was at a fencing tournament...
    It wasn't a story per se, just a question. I recently read the rule books and the refs study guide for the second time, and am still working on understanding this sport...not all situations are covered therein, and every so often they change a rule. I, in my relative ignorance, just wondered who really should have received the card in the given situation.

    At any rate, it was a friendly (albeit sanctioned) tournament, and nobody was mad at anyone else after. They all had a good laugh afterward, about that and other things. The fencer who should have won (based on seeding and experience etc.) eventually did ... despite the putzing around by, yes, a bunch of teen males possibly having a momentary judgment lapse a la Myrddin's post.
    However, from my perspective as superMOM and all the baggage that comes with the mom part, it would seem that warnings, particularly where SAFETY is concerned, should be applied uniformly regardless of whether it is a friendly affair or a dead-serious-must-make-the-Olympic-team type of deal. When someone yells out to look behind you, you usually do, wherever you are. It's a reflex that has served our species well over the millenia. Is a spectator less guilty of putting another fencer in jeopardy on the strip if it is a friendly match? Probably a yellow card for the spectator would have been more appropos than a black in this situation (and here context is important, I guess) since there was not really malice aforthought, just the aforementioned lapse of judgment.

    By the by, I now have an opinion from a certified FOC instructor stating that both the spectator AND the fencer should be carded. Although carding the fencer too might not seem fair, it IS the rule.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Supermom
    By the by, I now have an opinion from a certified FOC instructor stating that both the spectator AND the fencer should be carded. Although carding the fencer too might not seem fair, it IS the rule.
    Well, if "halt" was called for the blatant disruption for disturbing order on the strip, the fencer wouldn't be carded, as it is perfectly legal to turn the back after the halt. (As downunder pointed out).

  19. #19
    Senior Member Mr Epee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Supermom
    By the by, I now have an opinion from a certified FOC instructor stating that both the spectator AND the fencer should be carded. Although carding the fencer too might not seem fair, it IS the rule.
    Just curious... was this expert at the event witnessing the bout, or was it an opinion based on your description?
    Take your time. Read carefully.

  20. #20
    Senior Member Supermom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrbiggs
    Well, if "halt" was called for the blatant disruption for disturbing order on the strip, the fencer wouldn't be carded, as it is perfectly legal to turn the back after the halt. (As downunder pointed out).
    Hmmm...apparently a halt was not called immediately after the disruption, although I think it should have been.. In fact, I was told the ref said to the fencer, "Your friends got you in trouble," prior to carding the fencer. A case of blaming the victim, perchance?

    But I'm not getting down on the ref, who is still learning the ropes, just wondering what the proper call should be.

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