Parent Behavior

[seltzerwater]

At my daughter's first summer nationals (new fencer)she competed against a much more experienced fencer. As the bout started I could not believe my ears when the competitors father started to shout awful comments about my daughter's fencing style. It was loud enough for her to hear. It was appalling that a parent would stoop so low as to shout mean hateful things to a 9 year old. I wondered what exactly he thought he was he teaching HIS daughter by doing this?! My husband who was also taken aback asked him to stop and explained that our daughter was a new fencer just learning the sport.

Needless to say, my husband got the whole exchange on videotape since he was filming our daughter's first nationals. Someone at the bout came up to us and suggested sending the tape to this obnoxious guy so he could hear what he sounds like. It might spare another fencer the anguish and his own daughter the embarrassment someday.

It doesn't take much more than common sense to figure out you need to be courteous, treat others as you would like to be treated and win but win graciously. And for the most part, 99% of the people we have met through fencing have been the nicest people!

[happy]

As a parent of two youth fencers, I've had almost all positive experiences in the past two years - with the possible exception of some blatant chair stealing at a number of tournaments, I've enjoyed the experience. Some parents and coaches (including ours, frankly) get too 'into' it, but I can't think of a case where a child/fencer has been yelled at/intimidated by another parent/coach. This is mostly at the Y12/Y10 age, but also up to the Cadet level.

Slightly related - below is a link to a fascinating/horrifying example of caring way too much about winning at this young age, I'm sure some of you have already heard about it, but it's very interesting. I particularly enjoyed the different perspectives the kids had when asked about it, compared to the parents. My favorite quote, though:

"Kids cross boundaries, are unfair and disrespectful, too. But they also understand better than most adults that the game is a chance to challenge themselves, to be with their friends. They don't always mind losing; because at that age, they are going to live forever and there will be plenty of time to play again."

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/news/story?id=2549340

[KD5MDK]

Originally Posted by sleepyweasle

We couldn't do that as we weren't present - she had gotten a lift to the event from another ref.

I think my daughter felt too intimidated to card anyone but a fencer on the strip (remember - this was her first "big" event) but it would have been nice if the supervising ref had done so (or at least talked to the guy).

That is unfortunate.

I am reminded of the story of a young sabre ref who was sent out to be observed by a high level referee who was known for his volitile temper, among other things. As it happens, said high level referee's son showed up for a bout on the observee's strip. The referee then proceeded to make several calls which the observer objected to, and the observer became more and more agitated, finally saying something no one should. The referee instinctively pulled out his black card, and then realized who it was he had just carded. (Not so much the name, as that it was His Observer).
He stuck to his guns, and you better believe he got his rating increase.

(For the record, I don't know who the young'un was, but I do know the observer, and the story sounds quite plausible.)

[fencerwallet]

Here is my Reader's Digest Editorial:

All parents want their children to have a utopian childhood. Sadly, this is not reality. At what point do we release that, “there is no Santa Claus” moment? Or, more accurately, at what age is the bubble burst for them by some third party? My son played on a 9-year old youth baseball tournament team. During the tournament the team played a double-header and he was the only player that did not get to play in the morning game, a deliberate slight by the coach. Other parents, too, noticed and could not believe that he did not get to play. He was extremely upset, embarrassed and hurt that the coach did not play him. Between games, I had to take him to a nearby park to calm him down, during which, through tears, he said he “did his best and it still wasn’t good enough”, did not want to go to the second game, and did not want to play baseball anymore. I knew that he enjoyed playing baseball with his friends, and I was extremely angry at this coach for hurting my child. I calmly explained to him that coaches, too, make bad decisions. I told him that if he wanted, I would help and work with him to improve (he is a good athlete but did have a weak arm due to funky throwing mechanics). I also gave him the, “if you put your mind to it and work hard, you can do anything” speech. He was very skeptical, but went to the second game and finished out the tournament.

Throughout that off-season, my son without my prompting worked extremely hard at improving his arm strength, mechanics and getting better. I would get home from work and he would want to throw the ball around. Perhaps believing that I would not lie to him, he literally took to heart the, “you can do anything if you work hard” speech. The sting he felt that day at the tournament was apparently very deep-seated. He continued to push himself. Worried that I had just set him up for more disappointment, I got him some private instruction. Of course, he physically blossomed, too, and the next season he was one of the best players on a first place team. He continues to play organized baseball and through hard work has developed into a very solid player. He even pitched in a recent all-star tournament.

This attitude carried over into all aspects of his life. In fencing, he has gone from initially not wanting to even participate in tournaments to winning a gold medal at SN. Of course, he worked hard to get there. He has always been a good student, but now when things get tough, he has no worries about working harder as a solution. Now, he believes. For him, I think when he looks back he will view that slight by the coach as one of his life-altering moments. It could have gone either way.

Sports are life metaphors. Dealing with the jerk coach or problem parent later on morphs into coping with a problematic boss or client. Team play morphs into becoming successful co-workers or business partners. Many times, lessons learned on or around the sports field are painful—but morph into solid life lessons that could positively affect the course of one’s entire life. It is up to parents to place these events that occur in the world into proper context for their children. Bad behavior exists in the world. People young and old have to channel disappointment. Sure you want to protect them, but isn’t it more important to teach children how to deal and cope with adversity? Every meal isn't cake and ice cream. After all, children cannot believe in Santa Claus forever, “…because, Virginia, there is no Santa Claus”.

[sleepyweasle]

Originally Posted by fencerwallet

Here is my Reader's Digest Editorial:...etc.

Yes - this is true, and my kid has certainly dealt with (and overcame) all of the above when she started fencing - which is her passion.

However, she only started reffing to help out (as in our area, like most others, there is a scarcity of sabre refs), not because she had a true interest. Her decision to stop reffing at "events that count" was based on her feeling stressed enough as a fencer trying to do well - she didn't need the added stress as a ref dealing with angry parents/coaches/fencers. She also had only been fencing for 1 1/2 years at the time and most likely lacked confidence in herself.

Actually it is very likely that now that she has been fencing another year, and has more confidence (and the results to back it up), she would probably do just fine. But as her passion for fencing has grown, her desire to ref has diminished.

[I_luv_saber]

At what point do we release that, “there is no Santa Claus” moment?

:sniffle: h-huh? :sniffle:
W-what's he talking about? :sniffle:

Sorry... wide open for it.

Seriously, though...
I've found 99% of the people I've met through fencing are very nice people. But that 1% tends to be a doozy! I've met a few major =insert favorite term for a jerk here=. If you are a ref, you can't be afraid to yank out that card when the situation calls for it. Lack of respect for fencers or referee I have no tolerance for whatsoever. It's uncalled for and completely uneccesary. The ones that steam me the most are the parents or coaches who yell at the kids... especially to the point of tears. Usually popping out a videocam tends to make them uncomfortable enough to stop. I mean, come one, these are kids! It's just sad really... but such is life, I suppose.

Anyways, I don't think I have much to add here other than what has been said. I'm with what seems to be te concensus... mostly good experiences, with those few exceptions. I'm against serious competion at a young age. Some fun, okay... but serious competition? I think not. Let kids be kids... they don't get to for very long.

My 2 cents...

[Soberin]

Originally Posted by fencerwallet

Here is my Reader's Digest Editorial:

All parents want their children to have a utopian childhood. Sadly, this is not reality. At what point do we release that, “there is no Santa Claus” moment? Or, more accurately, at what age is the bubble burst for them by some third party? My son played on a 9-year old youth baseball tournament team. During the tournament the team played a double-header and he was the only player that did not get to play in the morning game, a deliberate slight by the coach. Other parents, too, noticed and could not believe that he did not get to play. He was extremely upset, embarrassed and hurt that the coach did not play him. Between games, I had to take him to a nearby park to calm him down, during which, through tears, he said he “did his best and it still wasn’t good enough”, did not want to go to the second game, and did not want to play baseball anymore. I knew that he enjoyed playing baseball with his friends, and I was extremely angry at this coach for hurting my child. I calmly explained to him that coaches, too, make bad decisions. I told him that if he wanted, I would help and work with him to improve (he is a good athlete but did have a weak arm due to funky throwing mechanics). I also gave him the, “if you put your mind to it and work hard, you can do anything” speech. He was very skeptical, but went to the second game and finished out the tournament.

Throughout that off-season, my son without my prompting worked extremely hard at improving his arm strength, mechanics and getting better. I would get home from work and he would want to throw the ball around. Perhaps believing that I would not lie to him, he literally took to heart the, “you can do anything if you work hard” speech. The sting he felt that day at the tournament was apparently very deep-seated. He continued to push himself. Worried that I had just set him up for more disappointment, I got him some private instruction. Of course, he physically blossomed, too, and the next season he was one of the best players on a first place team. He continues to play organized baseball and through hard work has developed into a very solid player. He even pitched in a recent all-star tournament.

This attitude carried over into all aspects of his life. In fencing, he has gone from initially not wanting to even participate in tournaments to winning a gold medal at SN. Of course, he worked hard to get there. He has always been a good student, but now when things get tough, he has no worries about working harder as a solution. Now, he believes. For him, I think when he looks back he will view that slight by the coach as one of his life-altering moments. It could have gone either way.

Sports are life metaphors. Dealing with the jerk coach or problem parent later on morphs into coping with a problematic boss or client. Team play morphs into becoming successful co-workers or business partners. Many times, lessons learned on or around the sports field are painful—but morph into solid life lessons that could positively affect the course of one’s entire life. It is up to parents to place these events that occur in the world into proper context for their children. Bad behavior exists in the world. People young and old have to channel disappointment. Sure you want to protect them, but isn’t it more important to teach children how to deal and cope with adversity? Every meal isn't cake and ice cream. After all, children cannot believe in Santa Claus forever, “…because, Virginia, there is no Santa Claus”.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but there is no proof that "life lessions" supposedly learned through sports as a youth will bear any fruit as an adult. It is just a hope, no more. I suggest you enjoy the journey.

[Repechage]

Originally Posted by Soberin

Sorry to burst your bubble, but there is no proof that "life lessions" supposedly learned through sports as a youth will bear any fruit as an adult. It is just a hope, no more. I suggest you enjoy the journey.

Wow. You sure put your two cents in at the end of a whole bunch of quoted text, didn't you? How about letting the rest of us enjoy the journey while you're at it?

[RITFencing]

There's no concrete proof that any life lessons learned anywhere or anythign else for that matter will bear fruit later in life. Not everyone with a college degree leads a succesful life; does that mean college is a bad idea? Sometimes people die in car crashes; should we simply abandon the automobile?

Nothing that I can think of is 100% good to everyone, but things (like sports) can have a high probability of turning out well.

[bunbury]

My first or 2nd national's bout when I was doing Y-12 was hilarious. The kid and his parents were behind me talking **** before the bout; bout comes up, he gets first touch after I knock him down twice doing a fleche (I came from 4 years of hockey... oops) and get a red card. I then proceded to beat him 5-1.

[Soberin]

Originally Posted by Repechage

Wow. You sure put your two cents in at the end of a whole bunch of quoted text, didn't you? How about letting the rest of us enjoy the journey while you're at it?

Actually, I thought it was more like five cents.

[Soberin]

Originally Posted by RITFencing

There's no concrete proof that any life lessons learned anywhere or anythign else for that matter will bear fruit later in life. Not everyone with a college degree leads a succesful life; does that mean college is a bad idea? Sometimes people die in car crashes; should we simply abandon the automobile?

Nothing that I can think of is 100% good to everyone, but things (like sports) can have a high probability of turning out well.

I agree with you. I just want to point out that the possible adult benefits gained from a youth sports career is a worn out cliche. The concept is a myth that we would like to hold on to.

[Peach]

I was at fencing tonight and happened to see my daughter there; she was tall, relaxed, and very much at home, having dropped in to fence and work out a little. Her youth sports career paid off handsomely for her; she started as a fourth grader and fenced all the way through college (where she had an academic scholarship for which she was nominated by her coach), going to NCAAs and co-captaining her team, and now as an adult in graduate school she has a sense of herself as an athlete and a competitor who has a right to be where she is. She understands sports and the value of showing up, doesn't mind winning and doesn't fear losing, and that's no myth.

Yes, I understand that some people don't get much from participating in youth sports. It's partly how you approach it, I think. It certainly helped her tremendously.

[telkanuru]

To backtrack a bit (somehow I missed this), I'm vaguely amused by people finding cheering distracting. If you feel this way when you fence me, please, tell me, so I can have my team/friends cheer louder. Eesh. If you can't block out noise go play golf or something. A great deal of any sport is learning to ignore the things that you can't change or that don't matter, and this falls into that category.

That said, abusive speach should not be tolerated by the official in charge. As a fencer, however, that's not in my control, so I don't worry about it on strip.

[Five Rings]

I posted these book suggestions in a different thread:

Whose Game Is It Anyway by Drs. Ginsburg, Durant and Baltzell - authors are directors of the Mass Gen Sport Psychology Program. Book is aimed at coaches and parents of kids in sports.

Parenting Young Athletes the Ripken Way, by Cal Ripken.

Both are great books for parents and coaches who are involved or intending to get involved in child sport programs.

Haven't really encountered any nasty parents yet since my own kids have not expressed an interest in competing but some of the replies here get me really steamed. I am going to suggest to my kids that if anyone ever tries this **** on them that their standard reply sould be "I am afraid you will have to speak to my lawyer about this" (indicating me, which I am) and go back to fencing.

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by I_luv_saber

. The ones that steam me the most are the parents or coaches who yell at the kids... especially to the point of tears. :D Usually popping out a videocam tends to make them uncomfortable enough to stop.

Yeah, no kidding. I hate it when those irate parents or coaches end up in tears -- so embarrassing. Not sure that videographic evidence makes them feel any better, though I have yet to try this approach. :P

-B