Web Classes?

[Allen Evans]

All KINDS of things can and are taught remotely. Surf around some of the distance learning sites that various colleges and universities are starting to come out with.

Well, coming from one of the capitals of remote learning (Univ of Alaska, Fairbanks helped push satellite teaching out to the Alaskan rural areas in the 70's and 80's and they continue to have a strong remote/distance learning program) I won't disagree that a lot of things are attempted to be taught this way. How effective it has been is another question. Most of the studies I've read have to do with academic subjects -- and I'll confess that's my only experiance with remote learning -- and not physical ones. I don't recall any gym classes on the UAF distance learning catalog (grin)!

I think that the over all feeling, however, is that the technology for teaching remotely has far out paced the methodology of teaching remotely, and this is only in what I've read of the teaching of academic subjects. I haven't seen any studies of the sort of physical skills teaching we're speaking of, and I'm not sure any studies have been done.

I'd like to think you are right: I'm a big believer in technology uber alles, but I have some serious doubts in the case of teaching even an into to fencing.

[academe]

I believe that 90% of teaching and learning happens when you get to know your students well. If you know them well, teaching them is easy.

Quite right Peach. I've helped in putting together online courses, taken them, and I'm even involved now in a study evaluating some (science) and one of the clear truths that shines through is that the courses are only as good as the facilitator(s). Even a badly designed course can be somewhat saved by a good facilitator.

I don't think on-line courses for teaching the skills for fencing would work. A good book and a local club to practice (if no coach is available) is probably better.

However, I could see an industrious (AND with proven credentials) coach put together something along the lines of Carmichael Training System (http://www.trainright.com) which helps one to construct a training regimen. Just look at F.net to see all the people asking for input on footwork, weight training, etc. Not a big market, but one that might be "added on" to some of the sites already in existence, or built by that industrious coach who has a friend with deep pockets...

Again, the referee and armory on-line courses would be the most logical and probably the easiest ones to find competent facilitators. The USFA or whomever wanted to create it just needs to make sure they create a team with the "expert" in the discipline to be taught AND someone who understands online learning and facilitating.

[jBirch]

I'm firmly in the "I'm not sure" camp when it comes to teaching the mechanics of fencing remotely...

Two immediate situations come to mind...

1) Bouting. We watch from the sidelines and analyse technique. Surely this can be remoted?

2) Fine technical skill. Sentiment de fer, distance, tempo and timing. There is no way that this can be taught remotely as the key to its instruction, even in a rudimentary way, is experience. For it to be sucessful, that experience must be acquired in a very structured way. A student has to be repeatedly exposed to the same distance for that distance to be perceived in a trained way. The same goes for tempo. For this skill, I'm sure that nothing replaces a skilled coach.

However...

As coaches, we always try to take a beginner and send them to the Olympics. It's our instinct. So we always want to make sure that the basics are taught correctly. But other sports are not so strict on the transmission of skill. Snowboarders, skiers, baseball, basketball and hockey players often start honing their skills by simply practicing alone and ad hoc. Many often acquire the basics without any formal instruction.

Is this desire in our coaches to create excellent participants holding us back in this arena?

James.

[MyrddinsPrecint]

Is this desire in our coaches to create excellent participants holding us back in this arena?

I always thought it was desire in our coaches to create fencers who won't hurt each other..........

But I could be wrong.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

But other sports are not so strict on the transmission of skill. Snowboarders, skiers, baseball, basketball and hockey players often start honing their skills by simply practicing alone and ad hoc. Many often acquire the basics without any formal instruction.

Is this desire in our coaches to create excellent participants holding us back in this arena?

James.

The technical and complex nature of fencing makes it something that is difficult to learn by itself. It is really quite difficult to create a good fencer unless there is an experienced hand to guide them.

The results of a self-education regarding fencing is alot like the self education of a musician. It might sound good, but unless its learned correctly, there are bound to be many technical flaws and theory flaws that will limit the musicians improvement.

[Mr Epee]

The results of a self-education regarding fencing is alot like the self education of a musician. It might sound good, but unless its learned correctly, there are bound to be many technical flaws and theory flaws that will limit the musicians improvement.

There sure are a lot of guys taking guitar lessons so they can mimic the stuff that Jimi Hendrix made up as he went along.

Maybe Jimi doesn't play Paganini, but heck I've heard 13 year old Japanese kids play Paganini.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

There sure are a lot of guys taking guitar lessons so they can mimic the stuff that Jimi Hendrix made up as he went along.

Yes, there are. Thats a ridiculous example though, Hendrix was extremely talented. Music has its people like Jimi, and every sport has a Bode Miller. One shouldnt attempt to apply outrageous examples.

Maybe Jimi doesn't play Paganini, but heck I've heard 13 year old Japanese kids play Paganini.

And they're not learning on their own in their basement, just strumming on a strat and having fun. They're taking lessons, learning the long and hard, but ultimately more fruitful way.

Besides dude, they're Japanese.

[tbryan]

As a side note: why is armoring so difficult that we need videos to teach it? I assume armoring must be hard, because so few fencers seem to do it, despite the fact that (except for boxes) the technology dates from the 1920's and few tools are needed.

It's not difficult. But fencers generally want to fence, not work on fine machining and eletronics. How many college basketball players help hook up the scoreboard? Now, how many college fencers help fix reels, body cords, floor cords, etc.? It's more necessary in fencing because of our equipment, but few fencers are really that interested in their gear. They do it as a matter of necessity. So, generally, they avoid learning anything about it until...it's necessary. At that point, they have a tournament coming up in less than a week, and they need to learn how to wire a blade. All they've done before (at most) is take out the tip to change a spring. Panic.

I think that such individuals would be willing to pay to view an online step-by-step guide for this topic.

[keropie]

I think that such individuals would be willing to pay to view an online step-by-step guide for this topic.

Unless they could find a potential free alternative (note: I haven't actually checked to see how step by steop it is. . .)

http://www.leonpaul.com/armoury/armoury.htm

[Mr Epee]

Thats a ridiculous example though...

You're supposed to use extreme examples when testing/questioning theories.

[qatet]

The results of a self-education regarding fencing is alot like the self education of a musician. It might sound good, but unless its learned correctly, there are bound to be many technical flaws and theory flaws that will limit the musicians improvement.

OT - sorry.

Bad example. Many, many jazz musicians learned originally by listening to records and messing arond with whatever instruments they could get their hands on. Cool book on the subject - and generally a good one for thinking about how people learn - is Berliner's _Thinking_In_Jazz_, in which many generations of musicians talk about their experiences playing along with records until they had the solos just exactly right. Of course, while they were getting the solos right they were also learning a lot about their instruments and how to veer away from those solos.

Returning to the topic at hand, my coach is experimenting with video teaching - mostly for how to train people who want to set up a fencing curriculum but who don't have the experience to do so. Maybe they know how to fence but never thought about how to convey their information. Maybe they want to teach an introduction to fencing in a gym class, etc. He, at least, is pretty convinced that there's a market for these materials.

We've also played with the idea of recording our adult classes so they could review the ideas of the week at home if they're only able to a make it in once a week - to keep the ideas fresher and allow them to see their mistakes.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Jazz isnt music.


No seriously, you make a good point. Interesting discussion.

[darius]

Somebody mentioned the CD-ROMs being produced with Coaches' College - they're handing them out now at CC.

I've got the Foil 1, and (until my roommate left with my copy) had the Footwork one. I believe the Foil 1 version is of limited use, but it's class time, so I'll expound later.

darius

[swordsen]

I think online classes will be much like buying a video of drills. (prehaps a bit better if you can ask questions about how things are down) In other words not really great but better than nothing. It gives you ideas to work on when you get to practice.

[TooLoftheDeviL]

Somebody mentioned the CD-ROMs being produced with Coaches' College - they're handing them out now at CC.

I've got the Foil 1, and (until my roommate left with my copy) had the Footwork one. I believe the Foil 1 version is of limited use, but it's class time, so I'll expound later.

darius

Speaking of leaving with copies of other people's stuff, bring my cd with you to Virginia in September :P

[RoninX]

Penetration into the previously untapped fencing markets of North Dakota?

[jack] Just as an aside: I'm pretty sure any use of the word "penetration" is banned in North Dakota. [/jack]

The DVD/CD-Rom instructional videos seem like they would be more informative than a live class given the constraints of distance teaching. An online "class", or more likely series of classes, in a similar prepacked format could also be valuable but none of these options would replace traditional practice (as everyone has said).

[oiuyt]

Looks like KOS has announced the first of these events:

http://askfred.net/Events/moreInfo.p...nament_id=2239 Session 1
http://askfred.net/Events/moreInfo.p...nament_id=2240 Session 2
http://askfred.net/Events/moreInfo.p...nament_id=2241 Session 3
http://askfred.net/Events/moreInfo.p...nament_id=2243 Session 4
http://askfred.net/Events/moreInfo.p...nament_id=2244 Session 5
This seminar series will focus on developing a recreational fencer into a national competitor. Classes will focus on technique and tactics for all three weapons.

http://askfred.net/Events/moreInfo.p...nament_id=2242 JO's Prep
Get ready for the JO's at this intense three weapon camp!

Interestingly, the referee seminar (not the official FOC version) doesn't appear scheduled for webcasting.

None of these appear to be classes, as I would use the term, but merely a webcast ($10/day) of what's happening at an in-club seminar. For reference, I don't believe that this is a particularly useful use of technology unless there's actually interaction between those being webcast to and those teaching the clinics.

-B

[IHateMrPotatohead]

They are trying to get all their technology up and running by the time the Referee class is held. If it's up and running well, that will be webcast as well.

[Padawan]

We will be using them first for our in house classes and working out the bugs before we bring them to other people.