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135711 · 08-07-2002, 08:30 PM

This is one of the better issues. I was very impressed. I was especially moved by Ivan Lee. I want to understand this better. Can someone please explain to me why it is necessary to delete men's saber, and add women's saber, and remove women's foil. Is it: 'we apologize for not letting women compete saber for 20 years, now we'll put you in, but we'll remove the women foilist just to punish you again, and then, we'll make this kid, who's been role modeling Peter Westbrook for 10 years suffer more, and then in 10 years, we'll eventually get it right and we won't discriminate against anyone"

Inquartata · 08-07-2002, 08:38 PM

I think it's water under the bridge now, the decision to ( temporarily ) omit team MS and WF from the 2004 Games has been "reconsidered".

In other words---"Never mind!"

oiuyt · 08-08-2002, 09:00 AM

It's still definately an active issue (although more likely to be WFT and WST that miss out) even if it's currently under reconsideration. SOMETHING needs to get decided for Athens. The IOC has said that fencing will have 10 events in the Olympics. Between individual and team we have 12. Somewhere 2 HAVE to be selected to be left out. This doesn't have anything to do with affirmative action for women fencers, descrimination against Ivan or much of anything else mentioned above.

135711- You ask for a better explaination. This is dealt with in depth elsewhere on the boards, but here's a brief recap. Until now (okay, recently) fencing has had 10 events in the Olympics. For fairly obvious reasons we'd like to add WS (Ind. and Team) which hasn't been in the Olympics. The IOC has declared that no new sports or events will be added to the Athens games which leaves us stuck at 10.

That left us with 3 options: a) leave WS out again, b) leave out 2 of the 12 events selected some other way, c) come up with new team formats that let us compete in 6 individual events and only need 4 team events to cover everyone. The IOC shot down the proposal that the FIE made that would fit category c because they aren't willing to let new formats be used in the Olympics unless they've been in use in the sport for a couple of years (the Olympics aren't a testing device for new formats, etc.). That left us with (a) and (b). Since the FIE voted unanamously to avoid (a), we have (b).

There have been several methods that fit (b) that have been proposed, and in some cases accepted. The first of these was to draw lots for 2 team events (one men's, one women's) to miss Athens. MS and WF lost the lot drawing. This caused widespread complaints from international fencers, especially from, but not limited to, those weapons. Since then there's been another FIE congress which changed the sports to be skipped to WFT and WST. The reasoning here was that these were the events attended by the fewest countries at the World Championships. Much less notice has been taken of this action.

I believe that there's another FIE congress scheduled later this year which has the power to change the decision yet again. Meanwhile, in a side note, at the World Championships the mixed team format will be used in sabre. This becomes particularly significant if this is considered having used the format for 2 years preceeding the Olympic games. It's possible that this would reallow option (c).

Mostly though we need to wait and see what happens. Any time there's an FIE extraordinary Congress all of these decisions are extremely subject to change. And decisions made are binding until and unless another congress changes them.

-B

135711 · 08-08-2002, 03:08 PM

I thought alot about this controversy at home. I don't think anyone wants to eliminate any of the competitions. What do you think of this, and before you all jump and go "NO BOO!" think about this first. [then jump and go no boo, ]it may be a good idea.

All teams. Six person teams, consisting of 3 men and 3 women. (three men, three women on each team). Then the fencer who has earned the greatest amount of points gets an individual reconition.

135711 · 08-08-2002, 03:13 PM

i see that the issue has been discussed and examined at length, and i appreciate your response, i think my suggestion could work, how about the four member team?

Four foilists: 2 men 2 women
Four Epeeists: 2 men 2 women
Four Saborists:2 men 2 women

All bases are covered, all weapons are recognized. Within each team is your individual who has earned the most points at the olympics. It will take a lot of pressure off the individual fencers to perform perfectly.

epeemike81 · 08-08-2002, 06:03 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by 135711:
I thought alot about this controversy at home. I don't think anyone wants to eliminate any of the competitions. What do you think of this, and before you all jump and go "NO BOO!" think about this first. [then jump and go no boo, ]it may be a good idea.

All teams. Six person teams, consisting of 3 men and 3 women. (three men, three women on each team). Then the fencer who has earned the greatest amount of points gets an individual reconition.<hr /></blockquote>so, they tell us to keep it to ten events, and your response is to cut it to 3???? don't you think that is a little drastic?

lets start ANY proposals with the following assumption: THERE WILL BE 10 EVENTS.

-m

MikeHarm · 08-09-2002, 06:35 AM

I like the mixed team idea, but I think the whole don't have the men fence women idea is the wrong approach. The idea that a women has to loose to a guy after years of high level olympic training and working her whole life at the sport just because she's a woman is archaic nonsense. If they get to the olympics they're champions and I think they'll rise to whatever the challenge is. And it couldn't be unfair if every team had to do it as well whatever the results of it were.

epeemike81 · 08-09-2002, 07:11 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by MikeHarm:
I like the mixed team idea, but I think the whole don't have the men fence women idea is the wrong approach. The idea that a women has to loose to a guy after years of high level olympic training and working her whole life at the sport just because she's a woman is archaic nonsense. If they get to the olympics they're champions and I think they'll rise to whatever the challenge is. And it couldn't be unfair if every team had to do it as well whatever the results of it were.

<hr /></blockquote>Have you fenced many high level women?? seen them fence mid-level men?? I have, and I have routinely seen women who are A's (including some international fencers) lose to men who are C's or weak B's....

Again: YES a woman can outthink a man, but sometimes, the physical advantage (which I don't think you can deny) cannot be overcome.

you are right that it is not unfair to the teams. It IS, however, unfair to the women. you are pitting them against a physically superior (i.e. stronger, faster) foe. it is like eliminating weight classes in Greco-Roman wrestling.... sure, its about strategy and leverage, but weight advantages simply CANNOT be ignored.

-m

[ 08-09-2002, 10:15 AM: Message edited by: epeemike81 ]

HilandDoug · 08-09-2002, 07:22 AM

Well, IMHO, the problem is with the premise, "The IOC has said that fencing will have 10 events in the Olympics."

WTF? We get extra sports like snowboarding added to the Olympic games, and other "new" sports made popular by ESPN and video games, and there's no "cap" on THOSE events, is there? I didn't see the IOC saying, "Well, we've got several different events here with this new snowboard thing, we've got to limit it somehow." No, they went the whole hog, and embraced everything about the sport, and gave it a ton of air time because it's hip with the younger crowd and the advertisers pony up the dough to sponsor it. WTF is the problem with adding 2 more fencing events? The ticket sales for those 2 events will pay for the events themselves. Doesn't the IOC know anything about economics? If the venue, athletes, equipment, referees, and other officials are ALREADY there, it DOES NOT COST EXTRA to have 2 more events. The base cost of adding 2 events is already covered by the existing events. And to reiterate, THE TICKET SALES WILL COVER THE COST!!!

Hey, IOC, I think you're a bunch of morons!!!

OK, I feel better now. Anyone else want to step up on the soap box?

Zelda · 08-09-2002, 03:06 PM

/me hands Doug a large beer and kisses him on the cheek as he steps down off the soap box.

Generally the fencing venue isnt used for anything else, therefore WHAT is the problem with adding 2 extra events and therefore 2 extra days??

[ 08-12-2002, 05:33 PM: Message edited by: Zelda ]

veeco · 08-09-2002, 03:47 PM

The problem that they are pointing out, I think, is that adding 2 more events means adding 40-50 so more people to the olympics.

These people have to be lodged, fed, etc. for the whole 2 weeks. That's where there is a problem.

And that's why they specifically say "10 events and 200 fencers", not more.

Also, snowboard is a winter olympics sport. The winter olympics are usually much smaller than the summer olympics. So adding events there is not a problem for them.

However for the summer olympics they are struggling to keep it under 300 medals to avoid it to be too bloated (part of the problem being that they chose Athens which was a bad choice). This problem is likely to occur again in 2008 as they chose Pekin to host the OG, and there is a good chance that they go over budget and miss their schedule as well there.

Anyway, they decide to pick on fencing because it's easier for them to remove fencing events (or diminish the number of fencers, which is what they have been doing since 1992, at least), than to remove track and field or swimming events.

Now noone never said anything when they diminished the number of fencers in 1992, which is why they continue to do it. In 1996, under the pretext of adding women's epee, they dimished again the number of fencers. Again noone said anything, because Women's epee was added and that was the most important. I think it stayed the same in Sydney (maybe I'm wrong, not sure).

But anyway, now we want to add Women's sabre and the timing's bad, because the organizing committee for Athens is screwing up, so they can't add too many new events.

Also probably the FIE is to blame in some respect, because they have not had been able to have a strong position on the matter. They changed and bowed down to the IOC countless times, without fighting.

For instance, one IOC rep talking to Roch was saying: "Fencing is an individual sport, why do you have those team events anyway?"

Meaning basically: you want to add women's sabre, why not get rid of the team event's altogether and you can have 6 medals, in 6 events, and that's it.

Roch basically did not seem to be able to respond anything to that.

I don't know about Roch, or that guy from the IOC, but it seems to me that these people don't know much about sport. Because in just 5 minutes, I am able to name plenty of "individual sports" which have "team/relay events":

- Track 'n' field
- Swimming
- Pentathlon
- Equestrian
- Cycling

etc. etc.

I don't follow those sports enough to know if these relay/team events have been removed of the program for 2004, but it seems to me that in the interest of fairness, if we remove team events from these sports then we should remove it from fencing. If that's not the case, then please don't talk about this to me anymore.

That's what I would have said to this guy from the IOC. Our friend R.Roch. just shut his mouth, and took that in his face. And after that he talks about it during the FIE's congress, saying that it's a problem that the FIE has to overcome.

Well, my dear R.Roch, you created the problem. Because you did not answer to the attack that was sent to you. And that my friend is the first sign of bowing to the adversary....

edew · 08-09-2002, 05:52 PM

I'm guessing that if Rene Roch ever fenced before, he'd flinch at any act of aggression by his opponent.

As for the team aspect for individual sports, I think every individual sport (maybe not diving) has a team component. Even archery, I believe. Tennis has singles and doubles (which would be considered a team event, given that just one more person is what is required for a team event in fencing).

Whoops. Even diving has "sychronized" diving, which is a team event. There isn't any team aspect for all other martial sports (boxing, wrestling, judo, and taekwondo). At the moment, triathlon is only individuals.

If they want to drop some disciplines, how about thinning the herd in shooting. There are 17 disciplines in shooting! And as Veeco would know, after having volunteered at the modern pentathlon, watching shooting is about as exciting as watching grass grow.

In contrast athletics (track and field) has 47 disciplines. I can see them getting rid of the 50km walk. Watching 20km road walking can be pretty unbearable, but watching some folks stroll around for 50km can be gut wrenchingly dull.

So, I can see how Rene, if he had any backbone, can make a cogent argument that fencing should include women's sabre individuals and team, and increase the number of competitors to 48 in each (8 pools of six, top-32 goes to a DE table no repechage).

It's not as though fencing can introduce yet another discipline to the events. Well, maybe the italian relay.

veeco · 08-09-2002, 10:03 PM

Or we could go ahead and add 'artistic fencing'. After all, they added synchronized swimming, which gave an 'artistic component' to swimming.

Why not do so in Fencing??

Actually, I don't know if that's an olympic event, but they do have team events in Judo.

[ 08-10-2002, 01:04 AM: Message edited by: veeco ]

three_hundred_fifty_five · 08-09-2002, 10:11 PM

Well, as you know, it was a blind pick to see which team events would get cut and men's team saber and women's team foil got cut.
I don't feel this was a total blind pick. There would be no way that men's team foil or epee would get cut.

achilleus · 08-09-2002, 11:50 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by MikeHarm:
I like the mixed team idea, but I think the whole don't have the men fence women idea is the wrong approach. The idea that a women has to loose to a guy after years of high level olympic training and working her whole life at the sport just because she's a woman is archaic nonsense. If they get to the olympics they're champions and I think they'll rise to whatever the challenge is. And it couldn't be unfair if every team had to do it as well whatever the results of it were.

<hr /></blockquote>I've always thought it odd that this myth that women and men are equal in fencing exists. Other sports segregate men and women, as does fencing. But only in fencing do I ever hear people saying that men and women should compete against each other.

veeco · 08-10-2002, 12:09 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by three_hundred_fifty_five:
Well, as you know, it was a blind pick to see which team events would get cut and men's team saber and women's team foil got cut.
I don't feel this was a total blind pick. There would be no way that men's team foil or epee would get cut.<hr /></blockquote>We will see that in 2008. Technically, since as of right now we will not have women's foil and women's sabre. So there is a greater chance that men's foil or men's epee gets cut if we keep the same format.

Mo · 08-10-2002, 12:31 AM

In the team competition, men and women would be on the teams but they WOULD NOT fence each other. Haven't you ever done a team tournament where there are three people on a team all fencing a different weapon??
The do not have foil vs Saber, (although that could be interesting) they have foil vs foil and epee vs epee and saber vs saber.
They are mixed teams but men would fence men and women would fence women....

Mo · 08-10-2002, 12:58 AM

Hil and Doug say,
"Well, IMHO, the problem is with the premise, "The IOC has said that fencing will have 10 events in the Olympics."

WTF? We get extra sports like snowboarding added to the Olympic games, and other "new" sports made popular by ESPN and video games, and there's no "cap" on THOSE events, is there? I didn't see the IOC saying, "Well, we've got several different events here with this new snowboard thing, we've got to limit it somehow." No, they went the whole hog, and embraced everything about the sport, and gave it a ton of air time because it's hip with the younger crowd and the advertisers pony up the dough to sponsor it. WTF is the problem with adding 2 more fencing events? The ticket sales for those 2 events will pay for the events themselves. Doesn't the IOC know anything about economics? If the venue, athletes, equipment, referees, and other officials are ALREADY there, it DOES NOT COST EXTRA to have 2 more events. The base cost of adding 2 events is already covered by the existing events. And to reiterate, THE TICKET SALES WILL COVER THE COST!!!

Hey, IOC, I think you're a bunch of morons!!!"

I could not agree more!!!
The way the meet is run is also really stupid. It is a simple DE as in you walk in the door fence a 15 point bout and if you win you go onto the next round and if you lose you are OUT THE DOOR.
No wonder no one wants to watch it.
The IOC needs to completely revamp how fencing is handled in the O's to make themselves credible.
I agree with I think Edew who said there should be pools for seeding and a round of 32 with repechage. Heck there could be two sets of pools.
If there is no team competition only 2 people from each weapon get to go for each weapon (male and female for a total of 4)
In reality if not for the need of Olympic recognition, why bother??

three_hundred_fifty_five · 08-10-2002, 11:11 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by veeco:
We will see that in 2008. Technically, since as of right now we will not have women's foil and women's sabre. So there is a greater chance that men's foil or men's epee gets cut if we keep the same format.<hr /></blockquote>Oh, that makes sense. It goes along the IOC's previous plan to dump fencing altogether.

135711 · 08-10-2002, 09:04 PM

in the mixed team event, i had thought it would be nice to send a little team of 6 fencers per pool, and the women fence the women [of the opposing team], while the men fence the men [of the opposing team]. but, i see mr. dew's point. since other events have so many 'contests' it seems unfair to limit the fencing. let's look at this again. [again, we could continue to expand indefinetly, until virtually eveyone has a shot at the gold and that could be fun, image the entire world fencing and winning, anyway]. Shooting, is a sport, and i was being serious about taking it up, but it seems ridiculose to have that much of it. on the other hand i find it exciting, there's something about watching the thing, you know when the guy is going to score a point or not, it's akin to fencing, with the targets and everything.

three is too little, 12 too much. i still like the mixed team.