Divisions & Colleges

[oiuyt]

Come now, all you need to do is con(vince) TWO of them into entering the same event and at least one of them will be capable of finishing not-DFL. :)

-B

[annacattiva]

oiuyt, that's awesome.

As for junior concerns... I was too old by the time I was competing locally. As far as I can see, the junior fencers are those who begin before college. Once you're in college, there are other competitions to prepare for, and unless they've been doing JOs for years and really want one last shot at it before you age out, college fencers probably won't try for that.

Anna

[Wafath]

Originally Posted by oiuyt

Come now, all you need to do is con(vince) TWO of them into entering the same event and at least one of them will be capable of finishing not-DFL.

Unless they tie for last...

W

[MyrddinsPrecint]

The further problem is that the fencers who HAVE fenced before college often did so in other divisions, and thus (depending) may have difficulties making qualifiers.

I didn't attempt to qualify this year because qualifiers were during exams, and JOs were during a collegiate competition I wanted to go to. (It had a much greater number of bouts, more bouts at-level, and the format was a good preparation for other events I wanted to do well in in the college season. Oh, and it was free.)

College fencers have at most two years in college in which they can still fence Juniors--

Depending on their focus, it might be an appropriate tournament-- if they're currently working on developing individual national results. Otherwise? It's not always realistic or worthwile.

Then again, I come from a club program, not an NCAA program..........

[epeemike81]

Originally Posted by MyrddinsPrecint

Yes, but somehow, I don't think I'm exactly what KShan and Whtouche were thinking of

hehe!

and you think your current teammates are?

-m

[epeemike81]

Originally Posted by oiuyt

An interesting phenomenon over the past couple of seasons has been people representing a club other than UMass. Prior to that it didn't matter where someone came from, everyone repped UMass. A couple of years ago a couple of people officially listed as PdF instead. A combination between PdF people entering UMass and remaining listed as PdF and people that started at UMass listing as PdF has resulted in UMass being a minority representation among actively-competing fencers from UMass.

Which makes sense, given that the only time club rep matters is Nationals, and UMass rarely has enough fencers at nationals these days to field a team in any given weapon. UMass fencers at Nationals this year, afaik, were 2 sabre (both PdF), 2 epee (both PdF), 1 foil (RIFAC). Back when you were the coach, there were usually enough fencers to field teams at nationals, so it made sense to rep UMass. if there aren't, then why rep them?

-m

[epeemike81]

Originally Posted by MyrddinsPrecint

The further problem is that the fencers who HAVE fenced before college often did so in other divisions, and thus (depending) may have difficulties making qualifiers.

which is why you're allowed to qualify in the division you go to school in should you so choose.

-m

[MyrddinsPrecint]

Originally Posted by epeemike81

and you think your current teammates are?

-m

SHHHHHH!

Heh.

The point is that EVEN SMITH (of all places ) seems to be involved in the division- and gives back more to the division-- than most other programs in the area. Not as much as UMass.....

But it's rather interesting to me that some seemt to be minimizing the somewhat small, but consistant effort of Smithies rather than highlighting the fact that although there are a huge number of programs other than Smith and UMass, they don't seem to contribute as much...

Originally Posted by epeemike81

which is why you're allowed to qualify in the division you go to school in should you so choose.

-m

But what if you'll be at school for qualifiers for nationals, but you will be at home for JO quals? Or JO quals at home are when you'll be at school, and JO quals at school are when you'll be home?

Granted, I'm no longer a Junior, and most people don't have problems that are quite that bad--- But it is entirely possible with the somewhat busy schedule of college life to simply not have the opportunity to get to JO quals, even if fencing is a huge priority in your life.

[MyrddinsPrecint]

Originally Posted by epeemike81

Which makes sense, given that the only time club rep matters is Nationals, and UMass rarely has enough fencers at nationals these days to field a team in any given weapon. UMass fencers at Nationals this year, afaik, were 2 sabre (both PdF), 2 epee (both PdF), 1 foil (RIFAC). Back when you were the coach, there were usually enough fencers to field teams at nationals, so it made sense to rep UMass. if there aren't, then why rep them?

-m

But it does matter other than at Nationals. Not as much, certainly, but it does matter.

It has the potential to change team cohesion-- I don't believe it is at this juncture at UMass negatively affecting team cohesion--- But I believe that if I were to rep anyone other than Noho, some members of my team might take offence. Or at least last years team might have been affected....

Furthermore, you know how your teammates fence better than most people--- which means that some people might prefer to fence their teammates in pools, and others prefer to avoid them. Most people prefer to fence people in competition that they don't fence ALL THE TIME at practice. If you rep a club that you are at for a large portion of the year, you're more likly to be put into a pool without those people that you fence most of the time--- and when I end up at a USFA tournament, I REALLY don't want to have to fence the Smithies... again.

But the large percentage of UMass fencers who are currently reping PdF are fencers who split their time fairly consistantly-- which makes it all that much more confusing! But very quickly, it becomes silly to rep Umass. If you want a team at nationals OR want to avoid fencing teammates, reping PdF becomes the only viable option after a certain number of teammates have decided to rep PdF.....

So-- Mike--- It does matter more than for just Nationals.... But, at least in this case, it seems that the other reasons would point towards repping PdF as well....

[Wafath]

Originally Posted by MyrddinsPrecint

The point is that EVEN SMITH (of all places ) seems to be involved in the division- and gives back more to the division-- than most other programs in the area. Not as much as UMass.....

But it's rather interesting to me that some seemt to be minimizing the somewhat small, but consistant effort of Smithies rather than highlighting the fact that although there are a huge number of programs other than Smith and UMass, they don't seem to contribute as much...

I think this is the point I am trying to arrive at obliquely. Although, to be fair, it really seems like a few individuals are making up the support staff of the division, regardless of club.

There does seem to be some confusion amoung division officers as to why we don't care about things like JO's.

W

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by epeemike81

Which makes sense, given that the only time club rep matters is Nationals, and UMass rarely has enough fencers at nationals these days to field a team in any given weapon. UMass fencers at Nationals this year, afaik, were 2 sabre (both PdF), 2 epee (both PdF), 1 foil (RIFAC). Back when you were the coach, there were usually enough fencers to field teams at nationals, so it made sense to rep UMass. if there aren't, then why rep them?

Like the year the "UMass" MS team consisted of myself, Jon Marcel (a couple of years graduated from Hamilton College), and Ben Master (about 2 months after he graduated from Brown). Neither Jon nor Ben had ever been on the UMass campus prior to the competition in Sacramento (although both had represented UMass during the season -- Ben at PdT, Jon throughout the season, as he'd planned to make up a team with myself and Sean Kinnas (who ended up not going to Nationals that year)). :)

That said, I very much believe there are reasons to represent a team other than in order to participate in team events at Nationals. Until recently Holly Ordway continued to represent UMass, even while living in Baltimore.

Originally Posted by MyrddinsPrecint

But it does matter other than at Nationals. Not as much, certainly, but it does matter.

It has the potential to change team cohesion-- I don't believe it is at this juncture at UMass negatively affecting team cohesion--- But I believe that if I were to rep anyone other than Noho, some members of my team might take offence. Or at least last years team might have been affected....

I believe that there's more than potential for negative effects here.

Leaving that aside, there's also the lost opportunity cost of foregone benefits. Having loads of people listed as UMass in local results lists, especially near the top of certain events, definitely helped maintain the team's profile throughout the neighboring divisions. Enough people are known to be UMass that this isn't completely negated, but club representation is a significant indicator of how one feels about oneself, and, in turn, how others will view a person.

-B

[epeemike81]

Originally Posted by oiuyt

Like the year the "UMass" MS team consisted of myself, Jon Marcel (a couple of years graduated from Hamilton College), and Ben Master (about 2 months after he graduated from Brown). Neither Jon nor Ben had ever been on the UMass campus prior to the competition in Sacramento (although both had represented UMass during the season -- Ben at PdT, Jon throughout the season, as he'd planned to make up a team with myself and Sean Kinnas (who ended up not going to Nationals that year)).

That said, I very much believe there are reasons to represent a team other than in order to participate in team events at Nationals. Until recently Holly Ordway continued to represent UMass, even while living in Baltimore.



I believe that there's more than potential for negative effects here.

Leaving that aside, there's also the lost opportunity cost of foregone benefits. Having loads of people listed as UMass in local results lists, especially near the top of certain events, definitely helped maintain the team's profile throughout the neighboring divisions. Enough people are known to be UMass that this isn't completely negated, but club representation is a significant indicator of how one feels about oneself, and, in turn, how others will view a person.

-B

given that the people who list as PdF are among the most vocal recruiters UMass has, I don't think this is really such an issue.

-m