Directors, How did You Get Your Training to Determine ROW in Sabre or Foil?

[flyingfencer]

This is a multipart question. At what level do you direct, local tournaments, sectional tournaments, or national tournaments? What weapon do you direct?

How did you get your experience in determining ROW? Fencing the particular weapon? A class or camp for training directors? If a class or not a class did you use video footage?

How does the International and National standardization for determining ROW trickle out to the masses all the way down to local tournaments?

Final part, does that standardization trickle out to the masses and is it consistent on the international, national, sectional and local levels?

Sorry, I lied, this is the final part. If it isn't standardized at all levels, how would you standardize it?

[RITFencing]

Originally Posted by flyingfencer

This is a multipart question. At what level do you direct, local tournaments, sectional tournaments, or national tournaments? What weapon do you direct?

Right now, just on a local level. Hope to try my hand at NAC A this year, possibly B as well.

How did you get your experience in determining ROW? Fencing the particular weapon? A class or camp for training directors? If a class or not a class did you use video footage?

A lot of practice at club, asking more experienced refs to look over my shoulder and give me advice afterwards. Calling actions in my head when the more experienced people were reffing bouts and seeing how mine stacked up to theirs.

Attending a reffing seminar, luckily enough given by Bill Oliver. See www.fencingofficials.org for more details of how to get one by you.

READING THE RULE BOOK! That's a really important one. Read the rule book and be sure you can answer every question on the sample test on the FOC website.

How does the International and National standardization for determining ROW trickle out to the masses all the way down to local tournaments?

Ask the top 4 foil refs to define an attack, you will get 4 different answers. However, they will all tend to agree on how any given action should be called.

Interestingly, there was a ref seminar given to a number of top sabre coaches. They were shown clips of high level sabre and asked to call each action. They couldn't agree on any of them, and from what I understand, the discussion became rather heated.

Final part, does that standardization trickle out to the masses and is it consistent on the international, national, sectional and local levels?

Not as much as it should be, especially on local levels. There are some truly awful refs out there who really THINK they know what they are doing.

Sorry, I lied, this is the final part. If it isn't standardized at all levels, how would you standardize it?

Get more people trained as refs, and get them more experience with knowledgeable refs watching them.

[KD5MDK]

Interestingly, there was a ref seminar given to a number of top sabre coaches. They were shown clips of high level sabre and asked to call each action. They couldn't agree on any of them, and from what I understand, the discussion became rather heated.

Given by top coaches, I believe. If you're talking about what I'm thinking of.

[RITFencing]

I think I am. I wish I could have been there to watch sabre coaches getting yelled at, for once, instead of just doing the yelling.

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by flyingfencer

This is a multipart question. At what level do you direct, local tournaments, sectional tournaments, or national tournaments? What weapon do you direct?

National. All three.

edit: National and below.

Originally Posted by flyingfencer

How did you get your experience in determining ROW? Fencing the particular weapon? A class or camp for training directors? If a class or not a class did you use video footage?

Rules testing as part of becoming a beginning-level fencer. A day-long clinic (this was before the FOC version that everyone knows about today). Actually doing it in practice, at local tournaments, at national tournaments. Watching what other, more experienced, referees call at the national level. Recently, watching international footage.

Originally Posted by flyingfencer

How does the International and National standardization for determining ROW trickle out to the masses all the way down to local tournaments?

People referee at multiple levels and many are willing to share advice, information, etc. Lower-level people observe higher-level people at each level. Coaches/athletes that compete at multiple levels let the lower-level people know when they're wrong (unfortunately also when they're "wrong").

Originally Posted by flyingfencer

Final part, does that standardization trickle out to the masses and is it consistent on the international, national, sectional and local levels?

Depends on the area. Some areas have too little interaction with the rest of the fencing world and tend to develop stylistic discrepancies. With areas that have more multi-level interaction there tends to be better information transmission.

Originally Posted by flyingfencer

Sorry, I lied, this is the final part. If it isn't standardized at all levels, how would you standardize it?

Continue expanding the interactions between areas and levels. Encourage those who do so. Continue to maintain high standards of what is expected and what is required that effectively force areas to have these interactions with the rest of the community (eg requiring a "5"-or-better referee at qualifier events, although this could be expanded over time).

Set up even more means of accessing information and of getting into the referee system. Currently there are a number of parts of the country with too little access to FOC instructors/examiners. Too many of the examiners don't actually examine people. Standards for behavior of the examiners/instructors needs to be very high to ensure that consistent information is being taught (and that the classification system is being consistently applied), which makes this difficult, but there also simply need to be more people out there available to get people into the system and help them progress through it.

-B

[IanSerotkin]

Great questions!

Originally Posted by flyingfencer

This is a multipart question. At what level do you direct, local tournaments, sectional tournaments, or national tournaments? What weapon do you direct?

Nationally (3-4 NACs per season, plus Nationals) and locally. For some reason, never at Sectionals. I ref foil and epee.

Originally Posted by flyingfencer

How did you get your experience in determining ROW? Fencing the particular weapon? A class or camp for training directors? If a class or not a class did you use video footage?

On my high school fencing team, we were required to referee from time to time. It was a very insular environment, and I learned a lot of bad refereeing habits there with regards to ROW. Then, home from college one year, I fenced the entire summer at a new club against a few great foilists who had two things in common: (1) They were ALL lefty. (2) They were ALL national referees.

I got yelled at, every single call, every single day, for the entire summer. As you might imagine, I learned a great deal about real refereeing in a hurry. I also learned to hate lefties even more than I did already.

Originally Posted by flyingfencer

How does the International and National standardization for determining ROW trickle out to the masses all the way down to local tournaments?

Through the referees, at least in theory.

Originally Posted by flyingfencer

Final part, does that standardization trickle out to the masses and is it consistent on the international, national, sectional and local levels?

It is usually consistent on the International and National levels, although there is (and always will be) a steep learning curve for new national referees.

There's a HUUUUUUUGE drop-off in standardization after that at the sectional and local levels. There are too many insular pockets and fiefdoms around the country, many of which never see the light of day--and some of which don't want to.

Originally Posted by flyingfencer

Sorry, I lied, this is the final part. If it isn't standardized at all levels, how would you standardize it?

The more popular a sport is, the more standardized it will become. You can't really argue with what you see referees or umpires calling on TV, because that's the way it is. You can argue specific bad calls, sure, but everyone in baseball or football has a general understanding of the rules because it's right there in front of your eyeballs.

An isolated fencing club or division out in the middle of nowhere doesn't have that luxury. They can't just turn on ESPN-8 (The Ocho) and see what the big boys are calling. Until that becomes an option, I don't think there are any easy answers. Sites like Fencingfootage help a little, but generally only a small fraction of the fencing population will ever access them.

I do think it would help to have Section or Division-level FOCs, modeled after the National model and run by whatever National refs the Section/Division has available.

[Peach]

Originally Posted by flyingfencer

This is a multipart question. At what level do you direct, local tournaments, sectional tournaments, or national tournaments? What weapon do you direct?

Used to referee at national level. Sabre only. Presently, I referee as little as possible.

How did you get your experience in determining ROW? Fencing the particular weapon? A class or camp for training directors? If a class or not a class did you use video footage?

All three. I would also add, standing behind accomplished referees at high-level tournaments and trying to see if I agreed with their calls.

How does the International and National standardization for determining ROW trickle out to the masses all the way down to local tournaments?

Referee seminars are getting more plentiful, and are also offered at national tournaments. I tend to be one of the people in my division who helps things "trickle" because I talk to national and international referees at all levels about rules interpretations and bring what they say back with me.

Final part, does that standardization trickle out to the masses and is it consistent on the international, national, sectional and local levels?

Slowly, and it's inconsistent. It depends on the connectedness between a division and the national level. If it's deliberately or accidentally isolated, the dissemination is very slow and obstructed.

Sorry, I lied, this is the final part. If it isn't standardized at all levels, how would you standardize it?

Publish video footage with agreed-upon calls. Figure out some way to keep the loudest (or most powerful) voices from dominating the interpretation of rules, even though those voices may often be very valuable.

[jeff]

Originally Posted by flyingfencer

This is a multipart question. At what level do you direct, local tournaments, sectional tournaments, or national tournaments? What weapon do you direct?

Locally: USFA division events that are self-refereed, and high school events in NJ and Nyack. I primarily direct foil, but obviously you have to direct all weapons for dual meets.

Originally Posted by flyingfencer

How did you get your experience in determining ROW? Fencing the particular weapon? A class or camp for training directors? If a class or not a class did you use video footage?

Competitions were largely self-refereed, and in club/team activity the deal was "the on-deck fencer is the ref", so it was a matter of self-preservation to learn how to ref, so you wouldn't be pulled to pieces. I first attended a director's training clinic about 1970, when dinosaurs walked the earth, conducted by a 3-time Olympic fencer who also directed in the Olympics, and followed that with a written test and a practical exam. It was just part of the scene that one was expected to be at least an adequate referee if you didn't want to experience a lot of pain.

Originally Posted by flyingfencer

How does the International and National standardization for determining ROW trickle out to the masses all the way down to local tournaments?

Sporadically and not uniformly.

Originally Posted by flyingfencer

Final part, does that standardization trickle out to the masses and is it consistent on the international, national, sectional and local levels?

No and no.

Originally Posted by flyingfencer

Sorry, I lied, this is the final part. If it isn't standardized at all levels, how would you standardize it?

Exactly what Peach said, adding: the videos probably should have accompanying training material (exercises and rationale), and should clearly state WHY a particular call was the right one, and what pit-falls for a particular phrase should be avoided.

There is a set of problem areas that always come up - we see them on this board all the time: what governs a PiL, and what are the proper ways to make one. What starts an attack and distinguishes it from a preparation. What ends an attack, or loses ROW from an attack. What is necessary to demonstrate ROW with AIP. The fuzzy areas show up all the time, and we argue about them all the time - training materials should remove the ambiguity that leads to the conflicts.

[KD5MDK]

This is a multipart question. At what level do you direct, local tournaments, sectional tournaments, or national tournaments? What weapon do you direct?

I direct right of way locally. I am a beginning national referee for epee.

How did you get your experience in determining ROW? Fencing the particular weapon? A class or camp for training directors? If a class or not a class did you use video footage?

Fencing sabre. Watching foil. The only official training I've had is the referee's seminar and reading the rulebook. I've watched video footage, but I don't find it a very good way to learn how to assign priority unless there's supporting materials (like discussion here or someone else to talk it over with). No to mention the number of videos where you can't see the referee and have to guess at the call. I attended the sabre seminar at the Houston NAC, but it was primarily above the level I'm working at. Most of my learning has come from watching other good referees work, and aligning my calls with them.

How does the International and National standardization for determining ROW trickle out to the masses all the way down to local tournaments?

From fencers and referees going to high level events and bringing their learning back.

Final part, does that standardization trickle out to the masses and is it consistent on the international, national, sectional and local levels?

Depends on the field. Areas which have high level (whatever) tend to get the standardizations fairly quickly. If an area has high level foil but not sabre, they can get good foil standards and still miss the sabre, or similar.

Sorry, I lied, this is the final part. If it isn't standardized at all levels, how would you standardize it?

Provide real training materials. The rulebook certainly isn't enough, and the resources on the FOC webpage are confusing, redundent and need an overhaul. There should be a PDF Handbook for referees, which contains all the interpretations currently in use. The important thing is that unless they're written down, there's no way to know if people are using the right ones.

[Greg_D]

Originally Posted by flyingfencer

This is a multipart question. At what level do you direct, local tournaments, sectional tournaments, or national tournaments? What weapon do you direct?

All levels from World cups down. (Though I've only done a couple of Jr. World cups at this point... and to nitpick, it's "at what level do you REFEREE please.)

Originally Posted by flyingfencer

How did you get your experience in determining ROW? Fencing the particular weapon? A class or camp for training directors? If a class or not a class did you use video footage?

Fencing both foil and sabre. I learned a lot at a seminar given my Andy Shaw many years prior to the current referee seminar. And then actually refereeing a LOT at each step in the process. There were a number of good referees in TX when I was learning and I appreciate all of their help and advice.

Originally Posted by flyingfencer

How does the International and National standardization for determining ROW trickle out to the masses all the way down to local tournaments?

What should happen is that somebody from your local area referees at a NAC, speaks to their colleagues, watches the fencing and sees how it's being called. They come home and teach everyone else.

Originally Posted by flyingfencer

Final part, does that standardization trickle out to the masses and is it consistent on the international, national, sectional and local levels?

It gets out to most of the areas of the country with active national fencers. There are absolutely some areas where the information has not yet penetrated. If your area isn't getting the info, hopefully, people would request that someone come and give the referee seminar. If that's not happening, you're going to have trouble. I agree that the FOC needs to continue to need to get better at this, though in my opinion it's a lot better than it used to be. (Major kudos at this point should be given to those who helped to develop and dessiminate the seminar. Bill Goering and Jon Moss were instrumental in the development and there are a number of poeple who do a fantastic job with actually giving the class.)

Originally Posted by flyingfencer

Sorry, I lied, this is the final part. If it isn't standardized at all levels, how would you standardize it?

I think video is the way to go and we're going to see what we can do over this next season. If you have other ideas (and particularly if you actually have relevant video - without a restrictive copyright that I can use) send them over to me.

Greg

[tbryan]

Originally Posted by flyingfencer

This is a multipart question. At what level do you direct, local tournaments, sectional tournaments, or national tournaments? What weapon do you direct?

Foil and epee. I'm rated to referee sabre, but I really don't trust my eye for that weapon yet. Locally at events where I fence and there are few dedicated referees. Also some larger local events, like JO Qualifiers. I also refereed a couple of days at Nationals.

Really, I want to fence and maybe coach. I just referee for two reasons

• Historically, local events had almost no dedicated referees. As a more experienced fencer, I was expected to referee. I thought that I should maybe know the rules.
• I referee at a higher level so that I get the benefit of feedback from other experienced referees. The feedback they provide when I'm trying to referee at the edge of my ability is very valuable. Additionally, the more high pressure situations I referee, the more relaxed I generally feel refereeing because "at least this bout wasn't as bad as that other one I refereed last season."

Originally Posted by flyingfencer

How did you get your experience in determining ROW? Fencing the particular weapon? A class or camp for training directors? If a class or not a class did you use video footage?

In foil, fencing the weapon for years. All of the clubs where I have fenced, the fencer who is "on deck" to fence referees the current bout. We do that at my current club, and with the complete beginner referees, a more experienced referee will stand behand the referee to help him and to correct some of his calls. The fencers on strip often help, too. For example, when the referee just stands there and blinks, we start with "OK. If you can't make the call, can you tell who started? Who had the initial attack in the phrase?" Anyway, refereeing bouts at your own club is a good start (assuming that someone at your club really understands ROW).

After fencing only a couple of years, I had the opportunity to talk to some decent referees about the difference between local conventions in calling ROW and what I was seeing at the National level. Honestly, I didn't really absorb a lot of what they were saying at the time, but I did remember some of it. Now, I understand what they were trying to say much better.

In the past few years, I attended two referee seminars. In one, very little guidance was given on how any specific action should be called. In the other, George K not only talked about how things were called, he explained how things should be called (versus how they are currently usually called).

I often watch at tournaments after I'm knocked out. It's fun to watch, but I also try to call the action in my head to see whether I agree with the referee. I often sit with a couple of my teammates who also referee, and we can discuss the calls that we didn't undstand or agree with.

Saber, I do not fence. I've learned everything I know there from talking to saber fencers and saber referees. I'm just getting to the point where I might be comfortable refereeinsg saber at a low level (D & under). It took me a long time to be able to see saber action.

Originally Posted by flyingfencer

How does the International and National standardization for determining ROW trickle out to the masses all the way down to local tournaments?

I think that the most effective way right now is by local referees who make an effort to learn from the FOC. Take the exam. Get observed while refereeing. Listen to the criticism. Try to make adjustments. Most of all, referees who have refereed nationally should make an effort to referee the same way while at a tiny local event as they do while being observed at a national event.

Local fencers, referees, and coaches, if they're paying attention, know the ratings of the referees in the local area. If they have local referees with a very high ratings, they could benefit from watching what those referee call. It helps no one to referee locally in a way that is not in line with the way actions will be called at national events.

Originally Posted by flyingfencer

Final part, does that standardization trickle out to the masses and is it consistent on the international, national, sectional and local levels?

International...I have no idea.

Nationally and lcoally, standardization does trickle, but I think that trickle is the right word. It takes years for things to trickle down. Add to that slow trickle fencers or referees who misunderstand something they see at a national event, and you can end up with some very odd things locally.

I agree with the other comments here. The more fencers in a division and in each club who have broader experience (fencing in other divisions and in national events), the more standard the understanding of ROW will be. The fencers, coaches, and referees can bring that knowledge and experience back to their local region.

The problem with isolated pockets of fencers is that they learn ROW one way. When they meet people who are competing or refereeing nationally and trying to standardize local refereeing around the current conventions taught by the FOC and seen nationally,
these isolated fencers are sometimes very interested in discussing or arguing their understanding of the rules and how things should be called. Really, I don't want to argue about how things should be called. I think that except for a very few strange cases, the rules + high level referees + the FOC is clear about how certain actions should be called. I'll call it however they say it should be called (assuming that I can actually see the action).

Originally Posted by flyingfencer

Sorry, I lied, this is the final part. If it isn't standardized at all levels, how would you standardize it?

I think that this group has a fabulous idea. I hope that it is able to make progress and produce something with the FOC and/or the FIE. I think that it would help a lot of local officials who do not have the time or resources to referee outside of local events.

I think that divisions should push/reward/encourage people in their division to take the referee seminar, pass the exam, and referee at increasingly higher levels.

[kalivor]

Originally Posted by flyingfencer

This is a multipart question. At what level do you direct, local tournaments, sectional tournaments, or national tournaments?

I have my Provincial level rating in Canada, but haven't refereed at any National-level events, as of yet. I now live in the UK, where I've refereed at every event I've attended, which is pretty much everything shy of Nationals, which I'm not allowed to participate in..

What weapon do you direct?

All three, though I tend to do more foil than epee or sabre.

How did you get your experience in determining ROW? Fencing the particular weapon? A class or camp for training directors? If a class or not a class did you use video footage?

Yes.

I learned from my various coaches, beginning in my first beginners class. I learned from fencing, from watching fencing, from watching good referees, from watching World Cup videos, from attending seminars, and -- perhaps most of all -- from actually refereeing, and getting feedback when it's available from a source I can trust.

How does the International and National standardization for determining ROW trickle out to the masses all the way down to local tournaments?

From FIE level referees and National level referees refereeing lower-level events and setting standards and examples -- and on occasion giving specific instructions as how to interpret certain actions -- for the rest of us.

Final part, does that standardization trickle out to the masses and is it consistent on the international, national, sectional and local levels?

Well, clearly the lower the level, the less consistent the refereeing. Sometimes this is a matter of the training -- the referees might not know the most current interpretations, and sometimes it might just be that the referees aren't as good, and miss things that better referees would notice.

Sorry, I lied, this is the final part. If it isn't standardized at all levels, how would you standardize it?

Ha. That takes a lot of work, by more than one person. Because each level needs its own program for standardisation.

For instance, it's easy to standardise at the National level. Presumably you have a group of dedicated referees who are serious about refereeing and improving their refereeing -- these people will react well to it.

At a local level, depending on the locality, you may have old-school people, inobservant people, or people who THINK they know what they're talking about, but don't. Convincing these people to change their ways might be difficult or impossible, and training new people presents its own difficulties in regards to recruiting, training and costs -- plus there are growing pains involved (and a change in the way things are called, even if it is for the better, that the local fencers might not appreciate).

Different localities would undoubtably need different plans, as they deal with different circumstances and different resources. The plan ought to lead towards being a referee at one of those higher levels.

[IHateMrPotatohead]

Originally Posted by tbryan

I think that divisions should push/reward/encourage people in their division to take the referee seminar, pass the exam, and referee at increasingly higher levels.

That's a wonderful idea. Unfortunately, many divisions (your's included) do not push/reward/encourage people at all. People love to sit around an whine about the lack of referees, especially at a local level, but no one wants to help solve the problem.

(Maybe this should be an entirely separate thread.)

[tbryan]

Originally Posted by IHateMrPotatohead

That's a wonderful idea. Unfortunately, many divisions (your's included) do not push/reward/encourage people at all.

Indeed.

I think that the first step is to host a referee seminar within the division. The last one in NC was a couple of years ago, but I think that it was the same weekend as an ice storm in the northeast part of the state. I know that there was a seminar in 2003 since I was there. I also know that there is active work being done to host a seminar in our division this season. In the past, the division subsidized the clinic fee for members of the division.

As you say, perhaps there should be another thread to discuss how divisions can encourage referees to get their ratings and to get experience refereeing at events outside of the division.