Preregistration for USFA events

[Philistine]

A couple of recent threads tangentially touched upon the issue of preregistration--and particularly incentives/discincentives based on timing of registration.

I had a couple thoughts and questions that I thought might make more sense if they were in their own thread. Questions first, then thoughts.

First, to those putting on tournaments which have preregistration (particularly, though not necessarily, through FRED)--how do the preregistration numbers stack up to the actual turnout?

Is there a difference between preregistration #'s vs. showups where there is a fee collected at the time of preregistration?

What do the organizers prefer in the case of someone who is unsure of whether they will attend (say it's a 50/50 chance up to a few days before)--do preregister or don't?

Personally, I really like the "who's preregistered" portion of AskFRED in judging whether a tournament is going to be worthwhile--especially ones where previous years' results are either not available or nonexistent.

On the other hand--for most tournaments that involve car travel (as opposed to ones that are either local or require plane travel and hotel reservations), I'm often unable to tell whether I'll be going until very shortly before due to work and family issues. For the most part, this means I won't preregister. This is especially the case where there would be a preregistration fee. On the other hand, there have been a couple of tournaments that I was able to free time up for where I declined to go because of (what I considered) a draconian walk-in surcharge.

--Philistine

[RITFencing]

I would prefer that people preregister and not show up if they are unsure. It helps to draw other people who are looking at the prereg list and considering, and I would rather be overprepared than underprepared with regards to referees, strips, etc.

[4qtrs]

From a planning/bout perspective I think it helps tremendously to know who is coming and how many.

I also think that it can work against a tournament that isn't an established event. The numbers can be deceivingly low. Being a procrastinator I often send in the paperwork on the last possible day which tends to hurt the numbers.

[DJ Apostrophe]

With the tournaments we ran throughout the regular season (sept - june), we noticed a trend with the pre-registration numbers...

If we took the number that we had on FRED, and multiplied it by 1.5, we got a fairly accurate picture of the numbers that we would have.

This summer, pre-registration numbers have been much closer to the actual turnout, and usually a little on the high side (by 2 or three people). I think that can be attributed to people going to tournaments in the summer are actively looking for tournaments, and are more likely to pre-register. There were a lot of people through the regular season who only looked at the printed division newsletter as a source of finding tournaments, and never bothered to go online.

n.b. all of these tournaments do not charge anything to pre-register or (currently) give a dscount for pre-registered fencers.

-w

[Bayou Bum]

There are some people who register for tournaments on askfred that you can assume will be a no show. It would be nice to include % of no shows next to fencers names when they preregister. Of course, that would just lead to them not registering at all even if they plan to show up.

[KD5MDK]

In the SWS, I think attendence numbers when prepayment is requires is about 95%, plus a few walk-ins, whereas yield when prepayment is not requires is closer to 75%, except for large events.

[HDG]

Originally Posted by Bayou Bum

There are some people who register for tournaments on askfred that you can assume will be a no show. It would be nice to include % of no shows next to fencers names when they preregister. Of course, that would just lead to them not registering at all even if they plan to show up.

I find that many of the pre-reg no shows are people who are entered by someone else, often a coach, just registering all of his or her fencers en masse. Maybe people should be a little tighter with giving others the ability to pre-reg them.

[RITFencing]

Is that percentage difference because fewer people go to for prepayment req'd events period, or because more people sign up and don't show up to non prepaid events?

[KD5MDK]

I would say that the pre-pay required events are slightly smaller in terms of preregistrations, because people don't prepay if they aren't sure they're coming, but there are a lot of no-shows at non-prepaid events.

[Philistine]

Originally Posted by KD5MDK

I would say that the pre-pay required events are slightly smaller in terms of preregistrations, because people don't prepay if they aren't sure they're coming, but there are a lot of no-shows at non-prepaid events.

As a tournament organizer--which do you prefer?

Also--at non prepays, do no-shows generally outnumber walk-ins, vice-versa or is it a wash?

--Philistine

[KD5MDK]

I'm not actually a tournament organizer, I just talk to them a lot. I know the ones who've tried it much prefer pre-paid. However, they might be slightly gunshy after a noted event where a prankster signed up dozens of extra people for a tournament that ended up being quite small, and the organizer lost a several thousand on it after venue, referees, etc.

[dberke]

We've been using FRED since it was originally created 3 or 4 years ago and have definitely seen some trends.

These days, the turnout for a tournament will typically be very close to what the prereg list shows. I have found that usually, the number of no-shows is equally balanced by the number of walk-ups who didn't pre-register.

In the early days of FRED, people didn't pre-register because its use wasn't widely known. Over the years, however, everyone in our area has gotten used to it and it is the default website people use to locate events. Our division will not sanction events that are not announced on FRED since it is that important.

Getting people to be aware of FRED and to use it is the key. Awareness isn't hard, but some people are lazy and don't pre-register, even if they intend on going. To solve that, for a season we had a late fee for those who didn't pre-register. That quickly fixed things, and we have since dropped that fee because everyone is now preregistering.

As others have mentioned, I'd much prefer to see people pre-register and then not show up. That way we can over-plan our events (number of strips, referees, etc) rather than be unpleasantly surprised.

Recently we decided that we'd like to move toward a pre-pay model so that we don't have to deal with as much cash at the door. To encourage this, we're using the same tactic as before - if you don't pre-pay, you get hit with a surcharge at the door. We'll see if that works out.

Dan

[little_old_me]

So, is it better to surcharge at the door, or offer a discount for pre-registration? Or are these essentially the same thing?

[dberke]

Originally Posted by little_old_me

So, is it better to surcharge at the door, or offer a discount for pre-registration? Or are these essentially the same thing?

Well, they're effectively the same thing. It's all in the presentation. Most people get ticked off when they see the term "surcharge" or "late fee". Similarly, they get excited and happy when they see "discount". So by calling it a "discount", I have found that more people are likely to utilize it.

Dan

[wbowman]

Originally Posted by KD5MDK

... they might be slightly gunshy after a noted event where a prankster signed up dozens of extra people for a tournament that ended up being quite small ...

Anyone else had this experience? I think I'd heard before of its happening and wondered if it was a pervasive problem.
We had one Virginia tournament in which someone from Florida (supposedly a "B") preregistered but didn't show. We were never sure if it was bogus, if he just changed his plans, or if he pre-registered for the wrong tournament by mistake and then showed up somewhere else and wondered why he wasn't registered.

[Fencing Jesus]

Jesus Requests: Tournament organizers would have a much easier time predicting turn-out if they ditched that silly preregistration system and rely on the infinitely more accurate predestination system.

Results guaranteed

[Bayou Bum]

We depend on askfred when deciding if it is worth travelling to a tournament. If we know that we are going to attend, we sign up early so others can see. Worse case, we wait till a week away before registering to see if it is large enough to make the trip worth while. Before askfred, we once travelled 300 miles to a tournament that consisted of only six fencers, including us. We don't mind travelling, but it helps us choose which tournaments to make the investment.

[akaiyuki]

Originally Posted by dberke

Well, they're effectively the same thing. It's all in the presentation. Most people get ticked off when they see the term "surcharge" or "late fee". Similarly, they get excited and happy when they see "discount". So by calling it a "discount", I have found that more people are likely to utilize it.

Dan

Agreed.

Also most people who are planning to go/think they might go will pre-register if there is a discount for pre-registration. You will have a more accurate count that way. By having a good number of people pre-register in turn, quote RITFencing, "helps to draw other people who are looking at the prereg list and considering". Usually a few people can't come last minute, but there will also be some people who are willing to pay the "late fee" to register at the door, so it kind of evens out.

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by Bayou Bum

We depend on askfred when deciding if it is worth travelling to a tournament. If we know that we are going to attend, we sign up early so others can see. Worse case, we wait till a week away before registering to see if it is large enough to make the trip worth while. Before askfred, we once travelled 300 miles to a tournament that consisted of only six fencers, including us. We don't mind travelling, but it helps us choose which tournaments to make the investment.

I too find the "Who's registered" feature of FRED; it's tremendously useful. But it can be "gamed", unfortunately. I once went to a tournament based on a check of the FRED pregistration numbers only to find that many of the fencers registered were not fencing the event. I strongly suspect that this was due to a concerted effort to get local people to sign up early in order to pad out the list and help draw people from elsewhere, even though said locals had no intention of fencing. This has to be a temptation for a tournament organizer trying to establish a competition, but it can easily backfire. I for instance will no longer trust the prereg list for that particular tournament no matter how impressive it may look...

[MyrddinsPrecint]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

I too find the "Who's registered" feature of FRED; it's tremendously useful.

I'm glad that your advanced age hasn't diminished your powers of finding.