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lovetofence · 08-02-2006, 05:26 AM

I was talking to a fellow fencer tonight and she stated to me that she was informed by the Section Chair who was informed by an RYC Coordinator that "at this time a tournament does not require division sanctioning to be an RYC". Hmmm, since when? I know that the Section can sanction a section championship (Jr. and Sr.) in any division in their section, and that the USFA can sanction any USFA (NAC or World Cup) in any division without the divisions approval. Maybe even a Super RYC can be sanctioned since it provides National points but an RYC does not provide National points, unless I'm wrong. So where does it say in the USFA by-laws or any addendum's that RYC coordinators can sanction any tournaments even if a division does not sanction that specific tournament?

FrankV · 08-03-2006, 03:18 AM

I found this on the USFA's website in the Division Operating Guide. Something that was put together by Buzz Hurst, Robert Dumcum, Dana Brown and Donald Alperstein:

"One more thing that we need to bring up, because it seems to cause a lot of confusion in some quarters, is the concept of tournament sanctioning. To put it simply, an unsanctioned tournament is an uninsured tournament because it is, by definition, a non-USFA event. Not only would anyone acting as an official at such a tournament not have any liability coverage from the USFA, but it is an open question whether an individual member would even be covered by the USFA’s Secondary Accident policy. Moreover, the Bylaws specifically prohibit members from participating in unsanctioned competitions, and suggest that they could be expelled from the USFA for doing so.

So, now that we have your attention, let’s talk about the mechanism of sanctioning, and who does it. First of all, a Division is the sanctioning authority for all tournaments within its boundaries except for National Events, and Section senior & junior championships. National Events, i.e. NAC's, National Championships or International Tournaments, are, not surprisingly, sanctioned by Colorado Springs, and Section championships are sanctioned by their respective Section Executive Committees. Every other event must be approved by the Division or it’s a no-go, at least as far as the USFA and its insurer are concerned."

I hope this helps you answer your question.

KD5MDK · 08-03-2006, 05:00 AM

How recently was that published? ie, I don't argue with it, but were there RYCs on the current model when it was written?

Goldgar · 08-03-2006, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrankV

I found this on the USFA's website in the Division Operating Guide. Something that was put together by Buzz Hurst, Robert Dumcum, Dana Brown and Donald Alperstein:

"One more thing that we need to bring up, because it seems to cause a lot of confusion in some quarters, is the concept of tournament sanctioning. To put it simply, an unsanctioned tournament is an uninsured tournament because it is, by definition, a non-USFA event. Not only would anyone acting as an official at such a tournament not have any liability coverage from the USFA, but it is an open question whether an individual member would even be covered by the USFA’s Secondary Accident policy. Moreover, the Bylaws specifically prohibit members from participating in unsanctioned competitions, and suggest that they could be expelled from the USFA for doing so.

So, now that we have your attention, let’s talk about the mechanism of sanctioning, and who does it. First of all, a Division is the sanctioning authority for all tournaments within its boundaries except for National Events, and Section senior & junior championships. National Events, i.e. NAC's, National Championships or International Tournaments, are, not surprisingly, sanctioned by Colorado Springs, and Section championships are sanctioned by their respective Section Executive Committees. Every other event must be approved by the Division or it’s a no-go, at least as far as the USFA and its insurer are concerned."

I hope this helps you answer your question.

I have a feeling that that statement is no longer in effect. Our club has held non-sanctioned events with the explicit permission of the USFA, and it's also my (unverified) understanding that the current insurance policy for fencing clubs covers all normal fencing-related activities taking place at the club, including competitions. I haven't looked at the insurance policy myself, but that's what our club's owner told me.

KD5MDK · 08-03-2006, 12:06 PM

I have just checked with a competent authority, and I am assured that RYCs are held completely outside the Division structure, and that they are neither sanctioned by the Divisions, nor do the Divisions handle ratings changes or results for them. It all comes from the Regional Coordinators.

Personally, I think this sort of structure is rather risky, and am particularly concerned about the SYCs, which as they award national points need to be run in the most correct fashion possible, but hopefully any problems with the structure will be fixed in light of experience.

edew · 08-03-2006, 01:40 PM

Yes, the USFA, through the YDC, took the sanctioning of specific youth events and handed it over to the RYC coordinators. It's the RYC coordinators who are in charge organizing the events (by delegating the actual organization to the actual host organizer, but the awarding of classification changes, if any, would be done by the coordinator).

fencerbill · 08-03-2006, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lovetofence

I was talking to a fellow fencer tonight and she stated to me that she was informed by the Section Chair who was informed by an RYC Coordinator that "at this time a tournament does not require division sanctioning to be an RYC". Hmmm, since when? I know that the Section can sanction a section championship (Jr. and Sr.) in any division in their section, and that the USFA can sanction any USFA (NAC or World Cup) in any division without the divisions approval. Maybe even a Super RYC can be sanctioned since it provides National points but an RYC does not provide National points, unless I'm wrong. So where does it say in the USFA by-laws or any addendum's that RYC coordinators can sanction any tournaments even if a division does not sanction that specific tournament?

It is sort of moot unless we are bumping into an adversarial situation.

Can someone hold a national or, in this case, regional tournament without getting approval from their division bureaucracy? The consensus here says yes.

But do they want to go ahead and do it if their division is actively opposed to it? A completely different question. What may seem advantageous to an individual or a club may look different to a division. Would it have an adverse effect on other division activities? You can only ring the bell for division volunteers so many times before it gets lonely.

Can a division refuse to allow its equipment to be used for a RYC it's not in favor of. Rather spiteful but possible.

If a division is lukewarm and some person or club wants to go ahead, that is one thing. But perhaps you should wonder about winning a battle and losing a war if you are stepping forward and everyone else is running backwards.

KD5MDK · 08-03-2006, 06:34 PM

Or an indifferent situation. If a Division doesn't bother to sanction an RYC because it's unnecessary, it might reassure some people to know that the RYC is still a legal event and is not actually taking place in defiance of Division opposition.

lovetofence · 08-04-2006, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KD5MDK

I have just checked with a competent authority, and I am assured that RYCs are held completely outside the Division structure, and that they are neither sanctioned by the Divisions, nor do the Divisions handle ratings changes or results for them. It all comes from the Regional Coordinators.

Personally, I think this sort of structure is rather risky, and am particularly concerned about the SYCs, which as they award national points need to be run in the most correct fashion possible, but hopefully any problems with the structure will be fixed in light of experience.

Thank you KD and Edew for your replies but no one has answered the question as to where it is written that what you say is so. I checked with Buzz Hurst, the main author of the Division Operation Manual, that is on the USFA's website and was given out in the CD that went to the officers and owners of each club and division and section last year, and yes it was put in place while the RYC's were going on. And as far as he is concerned since it is in writing and is a legal document of the USFA it is a stated policy and is in fact in force. That is why I find it bewildering that one would say that RYC's have some perceived power, a power to sanction an event over a Divisions decision, but it is not written anywhere that I have been able to find. If someone could direct me to that passage it would help.

KD5MDK · 08-04-2006, 03:56 PM

I am afraid that if you want written evidence of a great many USFA policies, especially pertaining to youth topics, you will find it scattered, contradictory, and frequently not present at all. Nonetheless, it is still applied as I said.

lovetofence · 08-04-2006, 04:23 PM

Understood about it not being written anywhere. But that is a problem, No? Not to argue the point that you were told by a person in the Youth Comm. that they can sanction an event in the division that has not sanctioned an event, no matter what the underlying reasons were or are, but don't you find it odd that even in the world we are in now we have a written policy that was written during the life of RYC's but yet it did not include RYC's in the sanctioning approval list? But that we should overlook that written official language because of a perceived person saying so? Color me silly, but this is not a grey area in an interpretation in some by-law or rulebook. So how can it be so? So many other people are trying to do the right thing with a very important decision that is coming up and the only thing they have are two things to go on to help in their decision. One that is written and is official and one that is what one person heard another person say but that it is contrary to what is written. What would you choose in that situation? Oh, and the USFA was e-mailed about this very question some time back and so far no-one has replied to the person who sent it. I just got off the phone with them and asked.

KD5MDK · 08-04-2006, 04:47 PM

What did they say on the phone?

lovetofence · 08-04-2006, 05:24 PM

That no one from the USFA has replied to them.

KD5MDK · 08-04-2006, 06:43 PM

Ah, my mistake. I thought you meant you had just been on the phone with the USFA.

FrankV · 08-04-2006, 06:58 PM

That's Ok L2F, no one will contact you on this matter because it has already been dealt with from the USFA's point of view. I have been on the phone and e-mailed to as many people as I could on this subject and got the same answer... "Look at the Division Operation manual."

I have a strong feeling where others might have heard the new rule come from and why this "new" ruling that is no where to be found on paper, not even a crumb, came to be. There are some parallel coincidences going on in this Section that this ruling just came to be out of nowhere. We never had a problem before with it that I know of. Why now? hmmm.
This ruling was even hidden in the new by-laws that was trying to be passed but got denied at the Summer Nationals.

If it is a national rule then why has it not been distributed from the USFA like the "no one under 13 can fence in the opens" e-mail that went out near the end of last season? I would like to see something from the National EC regarding this matter so there would be no more speculation on this subject. Anything from them... even if it's ... "Look at the Division Operation manual".

edew · 08-05-2006, 04:12 PM

Each division would have a different ops manual, if it has one at all. I don't think the divisions' ops manuals would automatically be changed to reflect what the national office would prescribe, if there were any new prescription by the national office concerning RYCs. Perhaps a visit to the RYC website, www.usfaryc.org would help resolve this issue. (I haven't read every page of that site, so I can't tell you that it would resolve this issue, but if there's any place to check, I'm sure that would be one of the places I'd go.)