Testing the new Visor Masks

[erik_blank]

Another post from my over worked eyes as the re-read the USFA rulebook:

Is it just my poor reading habits, or are the testing requirements for the new Lexan Visor mask missing from the book? Are there any tests for the visor itself outside of making sure that it is not over 2 years old? I would assume that there is NOT a punch test for it (scratching nightmares there I'm sure), but what about other things that should be inspected for?

[KD5MDK]

Make sure that the nuts on the frame are tight, and not missing. Check the date.

[Epee Scherma]

Whoa, I am surprised there is not special punch test for the lexan. That seems quite risky.

[DHCJr]

Even the testing of FIE masks is a U.S. thing. Joe Byrnes at a World Cup was not allowed to do even a punch test on regular masks and these were obviously illegal. The punch dropped through the side mask.

If a crack was found, there would probably be an argument for the Armorer to try and fail it as there is nothing in the rules banning cracks.

RR wants to make the 'Gods of Television' happy and he thinks that the only way to do it is for the Television audience to see the eyes. Considering you can see the eyes when their fencing and they rip off the mask right away. You can see the eyes in posed still shots.

I am afraid the only thing we have is the date.

Dan told me about a problem that happened at I believe happened at the Jr./Cadet Worlds. Many of the masks had no dates. So the Chairman of SEMI said to permanently mark with the current date and they can use it for 2 years after that.

I think you know how I feel about the compentency of the Chairman of SEMI.

[fencerbill]

Originally Posted by Epee Scherma

Whoa, I am surprised there is not special punch test for the lexan. That seems quite risky.

You think punch testing of metal mesh masks leads to eventual deterioration of the mask, don't even think about punch testing Lexan.

Please remember that Lexan is used for military airplane canopies. There is a looonnnngggg history of testing there. The airplane canopies are tested and tested and tested during development. I imagine that during production there are sample pieces made from the same batch of Lexan as the canopies which are then tested. You use the principle of establishing during development that testing the sample provides satisfactory evidence that the production item will perform as required.

For fencing mask visors I would expect that they have shown that for a production lot of visors, testing of the sample items provides adequate assurance of expected performance for the visors used during competition.

There are requirements that the fencing visors do not have holes drilled in them, for example, and that they are formed in the same shape that they will be used. They should not be deformed during installation, they should be taken out of use if they have suffered severe damage and they are considered to have a finite life time before they are discarded, in this case two years.

These factors make it even more important that visor masks be watched to see that they retain the original 135 degree shape of the mesh/visor original construction. The significant factor is that the piece of Lexan should fit exactly into the curve of the metal frame and that the tightening of the frame around the Lexan should not cause it to change shape.

So, you don't need to punch test a Lexan mask.

[brtech]

I believe there is a date limit after which you CAN punch test an FIE mask at Worlds, but I can't remember if it's one year or two.

In the US, we do punch the mesh if we feel it is warranted (we usually will not on an obviously new mask), and we do check dates on the Lexan.

PBT mask users note:
The older lexan date is put on the edge of the lexan which is covered up by the metal when it is mounted. Newer lexan does not have this problem. We DID require disassembly of the lexan to see the date. Several fencers aware of the problem had bought new lexan just because of this problem.

Haven't seen that on other vendor's. Old PBT date mark is acceptable (if its within 2 years of course), it's just a pain to check.

[fencerbill]

[quote=DHCJr]Even the testing of FIE masks is a U.S. thing. Joe Byrnes at a World Cup was not allowed to do even a punch test on regular masks and these were obviously illegal. The punch dropped through the side mask.

QUOTE]
You are probably talking about the 2000 Peabody World Cup Sabre. Don, I was there along with Joe Byrnes and Al Merritt and some others. You are misrepresenting what happened.

There were masks being used by the French team which failed. These were brand new masks and this was probably the first competition where they were to be used. All of the masks of this imprint were failing and they were failing in multiple places. It was mostly a case of acute embarrassment on the part of the French team. It was also true that there were probably not enough masks available from the vendors to replace all of the masks that had failed.

The next thing we knew the FIE representative came over and told us to pass all of these masks. He should not have done this. He did not tell us to stop testing masks, he told us to pass the masks with this imprint which were failing the test.

I had a very good opportunity to examine these masks. Yes, they failed the FIE specified punch test. But it was probably also true that the fencers who were going to use these masks that day were not significantly more exposed to danger than the other Sabre fencers there that day. I don't know what I would have felt if it was a Foil or Epee competition. While it doesn't make up for the masks not being up to FIE standards, there were no failures or accidents that day.

The manufacturer cheated and did not manufacture the masks with the same quality as the masks which he had submitted for SEMI approval.

On another occasion, as head tech at a NAC, I saw seemingly identical masks but now with the house brand of a US vendor on them which also failed. One failed 11 consecutive punch tests and 14 of 15. We did not allow its use. The US vendor had been cheated by the same manufacturer.

I have worked under SEMI supervision at 4 World Championships, not all in the US, and we punch tested masks at every one of them. I understand you have worked at World Championships also. Did you punch test masks there?

So punch testing masks is not just a US thing. If you see a brand new FIE mask dated 2006 with no visible defects, do you think you have to test it? Or are you just covering your A$$ in case some idiot wants to sue you?

[fencerbill]

Originally Posted by brtech

I believe there is a date limit after which you CAN punch test an FIE mask at Worlds, but I can't remember if it's one year or two.

As I have described elsewhere, I pinned Dan DeChaine in a corner and pestered him until he made the following statement.

"You do not HAVE to punch test an FIE mask if it is dated the current or previous year."

Take it for what it's worth.

[DHCJr]

Originally Posted by brtech

I believe there is a date limit after which you CAN punch test an FIE mask at Worlds, but I can't remember if it's one year or two.

There is no date limit on when you can. If you feel that it is unsafe you can from date of manufacture. As Bill said you don't HAVE to.

I seemed to have said wrong on the World Cup, I was not there. This is information I got second hand from Joe and Dan and I could have misheard. I definitely misremembered the weapon as I thought it was Foil.

As far as being a U.S. thing, I wasn't talking about international, I was talking about local competitions. Yes at World Championship you do mask tests. For those outside the U.S. I have a question, do you do a mask test at local competitions, regionals or nationals? In the US we do mask test at all competitions. I don't think that is the standard in most countries.

I was at the Mexican J.O.'s just watching. There was no mask test!

[downunder]

Originally Posted by DHCJr

Even the testing of FIE masks is a U.S. thing.

I've fenced in a lot of different countries at a lot of different levels and the only test my mask gets is a visual once over.

[fencerbill]

Originally Posted by downunder

I've fenced in a lot of different countries at a lot of different levels and the only test my mask gets is a visual once over.

If you have a displaced wire and they don't punch test after the visual, they are not doing their job. Yes it is true that in many other countries they are not as anally retentive about punch testing as in the US.

[downunder]

Originally Posted by fencerbill

If you have a displaced wire and they don't punch test after the visual, they are not doing their job. Yes it is true that in many other countries they are not as anally retentive about punch testing as in the US.

hmm thats slightly strange.

I have never ever seen a punch test device, and i've worked with armourers that did the Sydney Olympics, and fenced at every level up to the junior worlds. There might have been one there, as dan dechaine was on for that, but since testing was done behind closed doors i can't say for sure. Certainly never seen one at a world cup.

[DHCJr]

Originally Posted by downunder

hmm thats slightly strange.

I have never ever seen a punch test device, and i've worked with armourers that did the Sydney Olympics, and fenced at every level up to the junior worlds. There might have been one there, as dan dechaine was on for that, but since testing was done behind closed doors i can't say for sure. Certainly never seen one at a world cup.

The Head Armorer for Sydney was Ted Li from the U.S. and many of the Armorers were also from the U.S. As Bill described U.S. Armorers very well, several punches were at Sydney and were used when needed.

[downunder]

Originally Posted by DHCJr

The Head Armorer for Sydney was Ted Li from the U.S. and many of the Armorers were also from the U.S. As Bill described U.S. Armorers very well, several punches were at Sydney and were used when needed.

fair enough.

As i'm sure you can imagine i only know the aussies. Still never seen one ever though .

[Allen Evans]

I had been told (by an armourer at Nationals whose name I did not catch) that there was a growing sentiment that punch testing a mask actually did more harm than good - the act of punch testing weakened the area tested.

Urban myth?

As for testing lexan...hmmm....considering it's history of military testing, I guess we can all feel safe if anyone lobs a chicken at us!

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by Allen Evans

I had been told (by an armourer at Nationals whose name I did not catch) that there was a growing sentiment that punch testing a mask actually did more harm than good - the act of punch testing weakened the area tested.

Urban myth?

Dan said that at the OTC last year...I think the jury's still out on it...the mesh is designed to take twice the amount of force the punch puts on it....and perhaps there hasn't been testing or simply enough time to see if this is true or not.

For me....not testing an FIE mask kinda implies that it won't ever fail...and that presumption runs counter to the armorer's first concern -- safety. I check every mask when I get the punching dutues...period.

besides, a mask will take mor hits during a tournament than it ever will ina season or 2 of competition where it's checked...and weakening the maskwould only really happen if you tested the exact same stop mucho many times.

]As for testing lexan...hmmm....considering it's history of military testing, I guess we can all feel safe if anyone lobs a chicken at us!

stel bends and deforms before is breaks....plastic shatters...no matter if it's plexi or aircraft lexan...

[fencerbill]

Originally Posted by downunder

hmm thats slightly strange.

I have never ever seen a punch test device, and i've worked with armourers that did the Sydney Olympics, and fenced at every level up to the junior worlds. There might have been one there, as dan dechaine was on for that, but since testing was done behind closed doors i can't say for sure. Certainly never seen one at a world cup.

we hide in the bushes and sneak out and do it when no one is looking.

[fencerbill]

Originally Posted by downunder

As i'm sure you can imagine i only know the aussies. Still never seen one ever though .

We're very good at hiding.

[fencerbill]

Originally Posted by Allen Evans

I had been told (by an armourer at Nationals whose name I did not catch) that there was a growing sentiment that punch testing a mask actually did more harm than good - the act of punch testing weakened the area tested.

Urban myth?

As with so many things there is something to it. What is harmful is if the mask was always tested in the same place. Armorers may test in 3-5 places, if they are uniformly distributed then there is unlikely to be any harm.

A real problem arises when a mask wire gets displaced. If it shows up on visual inspection, a conscientious armorer will test there. Which can mean multiple tests in the same place which is bad.

So if you get an obvious displaced wire you should get a qualified armorer to check it and, if he feels appropriate to do so, realign the displaced wire so that future conscientious armorers won't always test in the same place. This is not something for anyone to casually do. Doing it wrong can ruin the mask.

Masks do get used up. I have seen a Sabre mask from a front line manufacturer that wore out where all the head cuts landed. The wires lost their crimp, were noticeable thinner and could slide around until it failed the mask punch test. The owner agreed to let me trash it.

I have also seen isolated mask mesh wires break and these also were trashed.

Sneaky place for mask mesh problems, particularly Sabre masks. The size marks can get knocked off leaving a hole or weak place where the punch test can fail. Sometime I have felt appropriate to fix these with a steel pop rivet and backer plate. Another thing to be evaluated and repaired by a qualified armorer.