I have a son who can't miss school more than he needs to. He's 14 Y.O. but if he had a choice, he'd fence Cadet and Jr. But NAC B schedule has Y14 in between Cadet and Jr. so he'd have to miss Thurs. AND Mon. since Cadet is Fri and Jr. is Sun. Is it just me or does this pose a problem for other 14 Y.O. boys too? Would complaining to USFA make a difference as it did for the Summer Nationals???
At NAC B:
3 adjacent age groups Y14, Cadet, Junior
3 weapons
2 genders
equals 18 events
4 days to hold events
quantity of anticipated participants requiring no more than 5 events per day
There have to be gaps in there somewhere, and the burden is usually spread reasonably evenly over the course of the season.
Note the maximum possible (4) have been placed on the Friday and Monday and only two over Saturday and Sunday.
No matter how they distribute the events, somebody's going to miss school! Cadets and juniors also tend to be (even more) heavily obligated, academically. Some kids are good enough to be really competitive in all three categories (hence the need to spread the events over three days); for them, the results they can anticipate at the NAC make it worth the effort it will take to make up the school work when they return. For the others, it's a toss up. But I agree with the post above that a kid who can fence in the Y 14 should do so preferentially, since his/her chances of doing well are best in their own age group - unless of course that kid is on track to make a cadet world cup already, in which case you would do the cadet event for points if you had to make the choice between the two. But if that were the case, you probably would already have a few seasons under your belt already and would not be asking this question!
If my memory is correct, prior to last season the NAC A in October included Y14 with Cadet/Div II/III. Last year the Y14 event was moved to the November NAC with the Jr. and Cadet events.
There are pros and cons to this change.
Pros are that the November NAC is close to the Veteran's holiday so students may miss fewer school days whereas the October NAC is not close to a holiday for many in the country. For this reason and because more youth fencers can fence more than one event, the November event tends to be large. (Which is also good and bad.)
On the con side, since the November NAC now has Jr./CDT/Y14, many competitive fencers end up fencing three days in a row which can be hard physically.
It would be interesting to know how others feel about this change and the history of the configuration of the two NAC's.
...a kid who can fence in the Y 14 should do so preferentially, since his/her chances of doing well are best in their own age group - unless of course that kid is on track to make a cadet world cup already, in which case you would do the cadet event for points if you had to make the choice between the two.
I may be getting ahead of myself (or himself) but I guess my rational for having him try Cadet and Jr. (instead of Y14) at this age is that there aren't too many chances to qualify for J.O.s for Cadet and Jr. I thought I'd take him to more Cadet and Jr. events to get him more acclimated to those categories. And yea, if he's good enough, why not the World Cup? But he has to fence comfortably in the National Tourneys.
I would love to take him to all three in Nov. but since he has to miss three days of school, now I have to choose between Cadet and Junior. But see, I'm taking him to Memphis for Cadet. See my dilemma? HELP! What would you do Supermom???
FYI...his coach would probably say take him to all three events in Nov. Sure, he's not the one who has to catch up three days of work.
Pros are that the November NAC is close to the Veteran's holiday so students may miss fewer school days whereas the October NAC is not close to a holiday for many in the country. For this reason and because more youth fencers can fence more than one event, the November event tends to be large. (Which is also good and bad.)
This year's calendar is a little different because NAC A is on Columbus Day Weekend - holiday for most schools so kids miss less school days. NAC B, however, lands on Veteran's Day, on Saturday. Unfortunately, my son's school does NOT have any days off for that holiday this year since it's on Saturday. Bummer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by teacup
On the con side, since the November NAC now has Jr./CDT/Y14, many competitive fencers end up fencing three days in a row which can be hard physically.
It would be interesting to know how others feel about this change and the history of the configuration of the two NAC's.
Well, I agree with you about being physically hard since I know many fencers WOULD fence all three if they could. But according to the unofficial poll I took, those fencers who are competitive in this category are also competitive in school. They are in crucial stage of their academic career and do NOT want to miss too many days of school either. So that's my dilemma along with many others, I'm sure.
I may be getting ahead of myself (or himself) but I guess my rational for having him try Cadet and Jr. ....
FYI...his coach would probably say take him to all three events in Nov. Sure, he's not the one who has to catch up three days of work.
Depending on where you live, your son could fence in the Jr. MF on Sunday and you could leave late that night or early Monday morning so he wouldn't have to miss Monday school.
For the November NAC, my son will miss school Thursday, (Friday is a holiday), Monday and possibly Tuesday, and that is only to compete in two events. Fortunately for Memphis they will only miss two days, Thursday and Friday. Columbus Day is not a holiday here.
So as Supermom wrote there is no way around missing school if they want to reach a certain level.
My children are really good at doing homework on planes. (I photocopy pages from their textbooks so their carry on isn't too heavy.) My son is in Gr. 11 so it is also important that he not miss school. We make back up plans if we miss planes and sometimes have complicated schedules where one flies in one day and the other leaves earlier to as miss fewer school days. Women and men's events are often at opposite ends of the schedule taking up all four days.
Yes, most fencers are competitive in school and fencing. That is one reason we love the sport. It is hard but my children make a choice and gives up certain things in order to be both competative at fencing and school. (Then there are always International events.....)
For the November NAC, my son will miss school Thursday, (Friday is a holiday), Monday and possibly Tuesday, and that is only to compete in two events. Fortunately for Memphis they will only miss two days, Thursday and Friday. Columbus Day is not a holiday here.
This is why I thought it makes more sense to put Cadet and Jr. events on two consecutive days so that you can go home on Sunday and not miss more days of school; you'll only miss Thurs.
At least lately, Jr and Cadet have had a day between at the NACs. Since they are events that are qualifiers for the National Team I think its to allow rest so that the kids that are in the finals and staying late aren't penalized for the next day's events as they could be if the events were on consecutive days. Those fencers knocked out early can leave, have dinner, and go to bed. Of course, usual disclaimers--applies only to those in both cadet and JR, assuming early start time with big numbers, etc etc.
If my memory is correct, prior to last season the NAC A in October included Y14 with Cadet/Div II/III. Last year the Y14 event was moved to the November NAC with the Jr. and Cadet events.
There are pros and cons to this change.
Pros are that the November NAC is close to the Veteran's holiday so students may miss fewer school days whereas the October NAC is not close to a holiday for many in the country. For this reason and because more youth fencers can fence more than one event, the November event tends to be large. (Which is also good and bad.)
On the con side, since the November NAC now has Jr./CDT/Y14, many competitive fencers end up fencing three days in a row which can be hard physically.
It would be interesting to know how others feel about this change and the history of the configuration of the two NAC's.
The schedule now is the way it was previous to the several years of having the Junior World Cup in November in Kentucky.
The November weekend being the world cup prevented there being a Cadet NAC event (but since there was one in October, and the cadet fencers (with points, IIRC) could fence in the JWC in November, it wasn't a huge deal. The Y-14 event was moved to the October event and Div III removed from the event (so it was a Div II, Cadet, Y-14 NAC) to make room for the Y-14 event, because otherwise, the Y-14 fencers wouldn't have a NAC until April.
When the Junior World Cup left Kentucky, it freed up that weekend to go back to what it used to be (a Junior / Cadet / Y-14 NAC).
As for the day between the Junior and Cadet events, I believe this has been a scheduling policy for the past several years. The Sabre events are not sceduled this way for November, so I'm questioning my memory on that, however, sabre events are also being treated differently at the Div I level this season (see thread on Div I format change), so maybe they're experimenting to see what works best.
At least lately, Jr and Cadet have had a day between at the NACs. Since they are events that are qualifiers for the National Team I think its to allow rest so that the kids that are in the finals and staying late aren't penalized for the next day's events as they could be if the events were on consecutive days. Those fencers knocked out early can leave, have dinner, and go to bed. Of course, usual disclaimers--applies only to those in both cadet and JR, assuming early start time with big numbers, etc etc.
I remember reading in the minutes of a BOD meeting that there must be a day of rest between certain events. So even if y14 were moved to another NAC, the jr. and cadet events would still be a day apart.
Optimal scheduling is far from a trivial task. There is a large number of desireable critieria (split into two levels), at least several of which are in opposition to each other.
Note that the USFA tries to place events on holiday weekends to minimize missed school/work days. NAC A is Columbus Day Weekend, NAC B is Veterans Day Weekend, NAC D is Martin Luther King Jr. Day Weekend, JO's are Presidents Day Weekend, Summer Nationals spans July 4th. Are all of these holidays everywhere? No. Even places where they are holidays are they always days off from school/work? No.
Within a weekend there is an attempt to have more events on weekend days than on weekdays.
One of the stronger category of desired scheduling traits is a day separation between cadet and junior events. Mlr2fence describes this well, including the rationale.
While I, personally, might occasionally disagree with isolated scheduling decisions, overall the USFA does a remarkably good job. The vast majority of complaints that I hear are from people that would like a different schedule because it would slightly improve their life, but I can immediately see that the consequences of such a change would be overwhelmingly in favor of the schedule as published. It's not infrequent in these cases for the complained-about scheduling element to actually be optimal for the person making the complaint, but the person hasn't thought through what alternatives s/he would actually prefer.
-B
__________________
"Oh but you can't expect to wield supreme executive power just because some watery tart threw a sword at you!"
Optimal scheduling is far from a trivial task. There is a large number of desireable critieria (split into two levels), at least several of which are in opposition to each other.
I totally agree. USFA does do a great job over there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by oiuyt
Note that the USFA tries to place events on holiday weekends to minimize missed school/work days. NAC A is Columbus Day Weekend, NAC B is Veterans Day Weekend, NAC D is Martin Luther King Jr. Day Weekend, JO's are Presidents Day Weekend, Summer Nationals spans July 4th. Are all of these holidays everywhere? No. Even places where they are holidays are they always days off from school/work? No.
Within a weekend there is an attempt to have more events on weekend days than on weekdays.
If the events weren't in these holiday weekends, school kids won't be able to compete so, yes, it's great that they are taking that into consideration.
Quote:
Originally Posted by oiuyt
One of the stronger category of desired scheduling traits is a day separation between cadet and junior events. Mlr2fence describes this well, including the rationale.
I am hoping that some day, my kids will fence well enough to last until the evening to even get a chance to be tired, if you know what I mean. But having a day of rest is the reason, then, you won't get any arguments from me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by oiuyt
While I, personally, might occasionally disagree with isolated scheduling decisions, overall the USFA does a remarkably good job. The vast majority of complaints that I hear are from people that would like a different schedule because it would slightly improve their life, but I can immediately see that the consequences of such a change would be overwhelmingly in favor of the schedule as published. It's not infrequent in these cases for the complained-about scheduling element to actually be optimal for the person making the complaint, but the person hasn't thought through what alternatives s/he would actually prefer.
I am relatively new to all this traveling for national tournaments and I don't mean to complain for sake of complaining. I was just concerned (as well as my fencer who just started high school in a very competitive school) about the school days missed. But life is about making choices and I certainly understand the consequences.
FYI...The original Summer National schedule for Atlanta was not very accomodating for the Y14, Cadet, and Junior boys because it put them at over 5 days apart when they could have put them closer to minimize the days of stay. When USFA recognized it, they revised it to make it much better. So, I applauded them for listening.
Hopefully, the kids won't have to choose between school and fencing as it is stressful enough for them as it is.
I wish you well as you continue down the fencing path, Journalmom. It is tough juggling school and fencing with teenagers. Thats why frequently kids are sitting with books/computer trying to get work done amidst the commotion. Especially so at JOs. Look on the bright side: If they get stuck on a problem there's someone there that could help them!
FYI...The original Summer National schedule for Atlanta was not very accomodating for the Y14, Cadet, and Junior boys because it put them at over 5 days apart when they could have put them closer to minimize the days of stay. When USFA recognized it, they revised it to make it much better. So, I applauded them for listening.
I also totally agree that schedules will never be perfect and it is a difficult task. People have varied situations with different weapons, sexes, finances, ages, capabilities and goals, etc.
The USFA does do their best but the Summer National schedule for Cadet and Jr. Men's Sabre was horrible! It was great that the Men's Foil events were changed but why not the Men's sabre? Fencers were flying back and forth across the country so as not to have to stay in Atlanta for a week.
I wish you well as you continue down the fencing path, Journalmom. It is tough juggling school and fencing with teenagers. Thats why frequently kids are sitting with books/computer trying to get work done amidst the commotion. Especially so at JOs. Look on the bright side: If they get stuck on a problem there's someone there that could help them!
Maybe instead of those banners for clubs you see at tournaments there should be big posters saying "Math", "English", "History", etc and whoever is working on that subject can congregate there and help each other.
Give them grief for that and you're just encouraging them to NOT fix things where possible.
-B
Well, not quite sure how to answer that but hopefully next year no group will have a huge break between events. As I said, scheduling is difficult, the tournament committee works hard and it will never be perfect for everyone.
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