An open question for the tournament organizers and div officers in New Jersey

[RITFencing]

Going over askfred today, I've noticed that there are a number of events scheduled in NJ. I think that's a great thing; more fencing is always good. However, the prices seem to be exhorbitant. I grew up fencing in NJ, and I remember paying 25-30 dollars for an event, but for div 3 epee at NJFA it's 30 dollars if you prereg and 50 at the door. Div 3 epee at Medeo, 30 bucks again. At the garden state games it was a 20 dollar egistration fee and then 15 for each event, so I dropped 50 there this year. The Empire State Games, by comparison, were free, and gave competitors a free warm up suit and lodging. I believe the Cherry Blossom Open, with ~130 in mixed open epee, many of them As, several with points, and staffed with some fo the best refs around, cost me 25 for entry. The Nick Toth Memorial at the Air Force Academy, which was a 63 person open that had Seth Kelsey, Nick Chinman and their like, was 25, and ditto for the Falcon Open a month later. The Prise de Fer Round Robin, which may be the most fencing I've ever done in a single event was something to the tune of 15. For smaller local things anywhere else in the country I've been, I expect to pay between 5 and 15 dollars. Shoot, Epeepalooza, one of the strongest events I've ever been to, was 15 dollars and it was in the middle of Central Park South, where the air costs two fifty per breath.

I like fencing in NJ. I have a lot of friends there from a lot of different clubs. It's a good time. But I really must ask: why is it so damned expensive? Does the division charge a lot to sanction things? Do the clubs really need the money for rent, bills, etc? Do you just pay refs REALLY well? Granted, I have gotten some good paychecks from directing at these things, but nothing compared to the take, and it's about the same I'd expect from things in NY, PA, New England, etc. I'll be moving back in the winter and I don't know if my poor wallet can handle this.

[oiuyt]

To be accurate, the PdF round Robins were $30/event (meaning I dropped $90 on entry fees that weekend). Still an exceptional value, but certainly not as good as last year ($10/event, NE Div standard), nor even as good a deal as you mentioned ($15/event).

ESG is a specical case as they have outside sources of funding, other than the athletes.

But on to your question. The various NJ organizers are realizing that they can continue to up fees to whatever the market will bear. It's clear that that point has not yet been reached, which is why the fees continue to spiral skywards.

A few years ago NJ decided to try to stop walk-in entries at qualifiers (as they make planning difficult). So they instituted a $100 penalty for doing so. The result? More money going to the division as mommy and daddy just forked over the penalty fee as well as the normal charges and fencer behavior changed minimally.

Specific annecdote: I was refereeing at junior qualifiers (WE, M/WS) last season. A girl came in with a blank check from mommy, filled it out to pay the $120 to fence in WS, and, as she walked away from the table made a comment to the effect of "yeah, and I don't even FENCE sabre!" (she was there for the epee event, for which she HAD pre-registered). Note that this was a 12-person event. In a weapon in which she didn't normally compete. When people are willing to do that there's very little (upper) constraint on entry fees.

Solution: only pick the best of the NJ tournaments, or the ones where the organizers have yet to yield to this temptation to milk the fencers for everything they can. Even the "low" priced tournaments are $25, which feels excessive to me coming from New England (the region, not just the division) where standard tournaments are $10 and only the biggest events get as high as $25. And the size of the fields, strength of the fields, facilities, and refereeing are all at least comparable, if not better. Nice thing about FRED is it allows for a fair degree of this pre-screening to take place. I won't travel to a mediocre or even merely unexceptional event that charges what some of these tournaments are starting to ask. With FRED I can make this decision before leaving my house and committing a day to the endevor.

-B

[RITFencing]

Thanks for the correction, Brad; that was my fault. While one solution is to simply start screening events, which I already do, it seems like a shame to have so many tournaments in an area and not be able to attend a good number of them. I'm tempted to start organizing them myself if I can get a YMCA to loan me a gym and the division officers (the ones I've met are very nice people) to rent me some strips. I'm used to running 10 to 15 dollar events, and I think such a cheap one might be well recieved.

[RITFencing]

Also, with regards to the ESGs vs the GSGs; I am not sure of all the funding, but I do know that the GSG fencing is part of the Garden State Games as a whole, so I would be surprised if there wasn't at least some support.

[Goldgar]

Originally Posted by RITFencing

I like fencing in NJ. I have a lot of friends there from a lot of different clubs. It's a good time. But I really must ask: why is it so damned expensive? Does the division charge a lot to sanction things? Do the clubs really need the money for rent, bills, etc?

I could be wrong, but it's my understanding that the division requires us to charge at least $25, and takes a $5 cut. At BCAF, where we hold competitions for both NJ and Philadelphia, the competitions sanctioned by NJ Division that we held this past season generally charged $25 for entry, while the ones sanctioned by Philadelphia Division had a $20 entry fee.

Now, these were generally self-refereed competitions. "Big name" events, youth/unclassified events, and qualifiers, all of which required paid referees, had higher entry fees. I'm not in charge and I don't set the fees, but I do think $25 is a bit steep, and $30 is too steep for me.

Do you just pay refs REALLY well?

Has there been a discussion here on what consititutes suitable pay for refereeing a local/divisional event?

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by Goldgar

Has there been a discussion here on what consititutes suitable pay for refereeing a local/divisional event?

Mostly just discussions of what current payrates are in various divisions and discussions about how much more we could all be making if we just reffed things like high school lax or volleyball (both per hour and overall for the day).

What's a day worth?

Potentially modified by the fact that people are frequently quite willing to work for less than a reasonable value for their time in order to help out the sport (although this should really only be taken into consideration when determining how much is acceptable, rather than what is suitable). And of course, this latter brings up the question of whether or not it's morally right for an organizer to (ab)use this willingness of people to work for less to support the sport to pocket a larger profit (for instance I, personally, would be more willing to work for less than what I consider a fair rate if that's what it took for an event to be successful/happen than I would be merely to increase the take-home amount of a for-profit business (profits accruing to a division that are expected to be plowed back into development of the sport in some way in the future fall into the former category)).

There do seem to be a awful lot of events out there (and I'm not talking just about New Jersey) where the entry fees are very high, the expenses seem to be a small fraction of the take, and that seem to be run primarily as a fund-raiser for an individual (or a privately-owned club, which amounts to the same thing as money is extremely fungible and club profits end up with said owner(s)).

I have no problem paying more for events which cost more to put on and, as a result of what causes those additional expenses, are more worthwhile. Some of these events do NOT fall into that category.

-B

[RITFencing]

Originally Posted by Goldgar

I could be wrong, but it's my understanding that the division requires us to charge at least $25, and takes a $5 cut. At BCAF, where we hold competitions for both NJ and Philadelphia, the competitions sanctioned by NJ Division that we held this past season generally charged $25 for entry, while the ones sanctioned by Philadelphia Division had a $20 entry fee.

BCAF charges relatively low prices compared to the other clubs I've seen in NJ. I felt that 20 was a fair price for the mixed open where I got my B (a bit under 50 fencers, fair number of As, Bs and Cs) and that 25 was maybe pushing it a bit at the next one, but was still within reason (7 each As, Bs and Cs, again roughly 50 people.) But 50 dollars at the door for division 1? I've seen 30 bucks for unrated events. For those kinds of prices, I want a guarantee of a lot of fencing and extremely competent refs, or something special like a big dinner for everyone at the end, or maybe a short fencing clinic. At the very least, I want to see not only referees, but decently rated ones too. They should also be fantastically run. To pay 30 for a small unrated or div 3 event and then have it self reffed is just kicking them while they're down.

Now, these were generally self-refereed competitions. "Big name" events, youth/unclassified events, and qualifiers, all of which required paid referees, had higher entry fees. I'm not in charge and I don't set the fees, but I do think $25 is a bit steep, and $30 is too steep for me.


Has there been a discussion here on what consititutes suitable pay for refereeing a local/divisional event?

There probably has; I've spoken with Jay Choi and a few others on reffing fees. Refereeing in NJ before I got my ratings I would expect between 75 and 100 for an event, which considering travel time worked out to about 15-20 dollars an hour. As I'm only a 7 in each weapon now, I think it's still a very fair price for me. I know the rules fairly well, and I like to think I did a very professional job. Hell, at the last one I reffed, I wore a full suit, and it's rare that I don't at least have a tie on.

Let's do some math here... if you have division 3 men's and women's epee, 25 in the men's and 15 in the women's, hardly a high expected turnout, and charge 30 per entry, you are taking in 1200 dollars. At 75 dollars per official, you could hire 6 referees, 2 people for bout comitee and an armorer and still see a 575 dollar profit. As far as paying people from the host club... where do you think the refs and BC members come from? In western NY, the division takes a cut of the profit, not the revenue, to make sure clubs don't lose money on events, and I believe it's 50%. Seems a bit steep for this, but that's still nearly 300 going to the club. More if the event is larger (and there are many young fencers in NJ.) It just doesn't seem reasonable to me.

[RITFencing]

As a side discussion, what sorts of things are you willing to pay more for in tournaments? I know people seemed very excited about having no self reffing at the Cherry Blossom. Grounded strips are very ncie for me as an epeeist, too, and I pay more for stronger competition, although some people may prefer to have a larger number of weaker competitors, depending on their own skill level. I also am willing to give more money to an event that I know will be exceptionally well run.

Speaking of exceptionally well run, the Friday night events in Mendham, NJ... they are pricey at 30 dollars, especially with a cap on the number of entries and preregistration required. However, I have reffed three of them, and we finished each in 3.5 to 4 hours, when there were 40-50 people between men's and women's epee. Strips were already set up when I got there, there was an armorer with equipment to loan to competitors, no self reffing, and everything generally ran like clockwork. Also we refs got paid well (100 bucks for E and under epee! Woo!) and got free food. Good subs and pizza from a local place.

They are great events for anyone starting out in fencing... and they are the baseline of what I expect in a local event that costs 30 bucks. Maybe 25, really. Anything less than tha kind of service is just too damn little for that amount for a small, weak, local event.

[Goldgar]

Originally Posted by RITFencing

As a side discussion, what sorts of things are you willing to pay more for in tournaments?
[...]
Speaking of exceptionally well run, the Friday night events in Mendham, NJ... they are pricey at 30 dollars, especially with a cap on the number of entries and preregistration required. However, I have reffed three of them, and we finished each in 3.5 to 4 hours, when there were 40-50 people between men's and women's epee.

One thing that you don't mention, and that I am willing to pay more for, is ... more fencing. I agree that efficient, well-run competitions are a blessing, but an undue emphasis on getting a competition over with as quickly as possible often leads to competition formats that minimize the amount of actual fencing that takes place. For example, we'll see something like one round of 5-fencer pools, top 80% up to a direct elimination. Unless the field is quite large, that's just not worth my money, even if I expect to make it to the final. And if I think I may go out in the first round, why should I go?

If I'm going to pay $25 or $30 to fence, I want to get a lot of fencing in! As far as I'm concerned, an ideal competition will either have 2 rounds of small pools, or (at least) one round of large pools, and no cut before the DE. Self-refereed or not, that's worth the money.

[RITFencing]

Dirk, you're absolutely right. I should mention in Mendham it was a standard pools of 6 or 7, 100% to DEs format. The short time the tournament took was due to the exceptionally low down time between bouts, not because the fencers were rushed along.

Yes, I want a lot of fencing for that amount of money. The PdF RR is a good example of something that's easily worth 30 bucks... that was, I believe 36 bouts in open epee. Might have been 35. And of a good quality, too.

EDIT: Now that I think of it, if an event is very small and well run doing 2 rounds of pools can be a good way to make it worth extra money. An extra 4-6 bouts for me is always welcome.

[Allen Evans]

The cost of the venue seems to have been left out of all the discussion above. In the case of tournaments without a club-hosted venue, fees of up to $125 an hour aren't uncommon (and things like A/C are sometimes extra).

In the case of a tournament hosted by a club, the operating costs of the club (in terms of rent, since utilities for 8-10 hours are probably minimal) also have to be covered. Rent is paid whether the club is empty or not, true, but many clubs have classes on the weekends, and that revenue must be covered by the tournament.

Suddenly the pie is a lot smaller.

However, that's not to say that I disagree with the theme of the previous posts. No one wants to spend 30-50 dollars for a self-refereed tournament, but to be fair, I think a days fencing (assuming you can get that far, of course) is certainly worth more than the price of a movie.

[jeff]

I suggested the following in a PM to RITfencing, but it's appropriate in open as well: if you object to the entry fees, in addition to voting by your absence you should make your feelings known by contacting the division's executive board (which changes composition tomorrow). That advice applies to any division. In addition, for the NJ division, I suggest signing up for the message board and posting there. All the board members, as well as many of the division members, see the posts to the board, and a topic like this probably will generate discussion. Finally, there is a tournament committee meeting to be held Saturday at NJFA. As mentioned on www.njfencing.org "These meetings are open to the general membership".

[RITFencing]

Originally Posted by Allen Evans

The cost of the venue seems to have been left out of all the discussion above. In the case of tournaments without a club-hosted venue, fees of up to $125 an hour aren't uncommon (and things like A/C are sometimes extra).

In the case of a tournament hosted by a club, the operating costs of the club (in terms of rent, since utilities for 8-10 hours are probably minimal) also have to be covered. Rent is paid whether the club is empty or not, true, but many clubs have classes on the weekends, and that revenue must be covered by the tournament.

Suddenly the pie is a lot smaller.

However, that's not to say that I disagree with the theme of the previous posts. No one wants to spend 30-50 dollars for a self-refereed tournament, but to be fair, I think a days fencing (assuming you can get that far, of course) is certainly worth more than the price of a movie.

125 an hour for non AC'ed space? I doubt these events are charging that much... Those that don't take place in a club tend to be held in a high school or college gymnasium, or a YMCA.

However, clubs in other parts of the country seem to make these events work for much less money... I'm aware that NJ is expensive, but so are parts of NY, New England, etc. Are things truly this expensive to run in NJ? That's what I'm trying to find out. Despite my rather exasperated tone, I really am curious as to the cause.

[Goldgar]

Originally Posted by Allen Evans

In the case of a tournament hosted by a club, the operating costs of the club (in terms of rent, since utilities for 8-10 hours are probably minimal) also have to be covered.

Even for a club that would normally be closed on the day of the event (thus excluding the rent factor), I think the cost of utilities may be far from minimal. At least, our club's owner is constantly bemoaning the cost of the air conditioning in the nasty summer heat we're having, and in the winter it's the cost of oil/gas that he wails about. I don't know about the electricity for the lights.

Any club owner who has a space suitable for holding competitions is entitled to make a profit from it, as far as I'm concerned. The real question is where does it change from a reasonable profit to scandalous gouging.

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by RITFencing

As a side discussion, what sorts of things are you willing to pay more for in tournaments?

Strong opponents. Preferably in a format where I get to play with lots of them (see the PdF tournaments the past couple of weekends using the Canadian Selection Circuit (formerly Canadian Elite) format for a great example, the PdF Memorial Day Round Robins for another (see a theme here?), the "shark-pool" format that Green Mountain division uses (used?) for some events, or even the Sabre Khan event here in Philly, which used repechage L32->L4 as examples of various ways this can happen).

Exceptional prizes. Exceptional in that they're particularly nice, particularly unique, or, preferably, both. High cost isn't an absolute requirement here, but they do tend to add to expenses vs. stock medals.

Something else interesting. Something that I can't get at every other tournament anywhere around.

Someone willing to fly me somewhere. :) I'll work as a referee for the remainder of the weekend if I get flown somewhere to fence.

National points.

I tend to expect adequate organization and put a small premium on better-than-adequate. Noticibly less than adequate and I'm likely NOT to return, but I don't consider this something for which I'll pay significantly extra.

Ditto referees of adequate or higher caliber. I'll deal with anything above horrid referees. I'm HAPPIER the better the refereeing gets, so I'm more likely to go places where I can expect a certain standard, but I can't say that it's likely to significantly affect my price sensitivity. Again more like I won't go to an event with inadequate refereeing for any cost than that I'm willing to pay extra for an improved standard. Although the more I think about it, it IS a "plus" factor, so it does go into computations on cost vs. value.

Note that the top item on my list (which isn't intended to be ordered) is strong opponents, which doesn't (usually) directly add to costs (although there are methods of achieving such that do: flying in high-skill/rated fencers, offering free entry to A's, other inducements that pull top people, etc.).

-B

[KD5MDK]

I'm still boggling at some of the referee payscales you're mentioning. When I had my 7, I was making $40 a day, and now that I've earned my 4, I'm all the way up to $60.

[tkrivosh]

Running a tournament requires A LOT of work. Even though I donate my services to the club, it does not mean that I am willing to work for free.