An open question for the tournament organizers and div officers in New Jersey

[counter riposte]

[THREADJACK]

I've worked in places where the deposit was in place and places without it. It definitely speeds things along at the end of the day, when everyone is trying to get their five bucks back by picking up trash, keeping score & time, breaking down strips, etc. There is definitely less stress on organizers and referees that have to help clean up and put things away after a long day.

At the end of a tournament it can sometimes be difficult to get people to pick up stuff or break down strips. In my experience, the tournament organizers end up having to do all of that at the end of a very long day if there is no deposit. The deposit just helps in terms of organization, so everything closes down faster at the end of the day. Many hands make light work.

Like MyrddsPrisinct (sorry MP) said, it could either be a penalty or a discount... For those who just leave after a competition, they get penalized $5 bucks. For those that stay to help close down the competition, they get a $5 discount.

[/THREADJACK]

-----)-----------------------------------

But enough threadjacking....

When the division events were in rented spaces, such as the YMCA, Drew University, etc, the higher prices of an event were necessary due to the high overhead. Not so long ago, there was an NJ event that didn't have a venue with two weeks to go to the competition. Competitors were informed by e-mail that the competition was cancelled, and as to where the rescheduled competition was, and the fact it was rescheduled.... See Below:

-----Original Message-----
From: njusfa
Sent: Feb 19, 2004 10:17 PM
To: NJUSFA@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [NJUSFA] U-19 Qualifiers -- IMPORTANT INFORMATION

We have been unable to find a venue for 3/7. We have been able
to obtain Morristown HS for 3/21. So ALL the U-19 INDIVIDUAL
Qualifying Events will be held on 3/21 at Morristown HS. The
following will be the modified close of check-in times:

WF - 8:00
WE - 9:00
ME - 11:00
MF - 12:00
WS - 2:00
MS - 3:00

As soon as we find a venue to hold the U-19 team qualifier, it will
be announced.

Please share this information with your clubmates and your HS
teammates.

Securing venues with simple deposits takes money, AC costs money, equipment rental (yes, some if not all of the boxes, floor cords and reels are leased from Blue Gauntlet) costs money, refs cost money, equipment (stolen shims, weights, clipboards and timers) cost money. During the time that the division was renting venues to run competitions, I could see a tournament costing what it did. Given knowledge of the NJ Fencing political scene, it is not hard to imagine why the division officers of the time decided to run events separate from the clubs.

Now that the competitions are going back to the clubs, the price should fall given a lower overhead, but so far, it hasn't. It most likely won't, given the fact that the NJUSFA is proposing to reinstate a $5 per fencer sanctioning fee. The political game will also eventually take its toll, but that's all I'll say about that....

[RITFencing]

What is the political game like in NJ? It's been a while for me. If you could tell me in PM I'd appreciate it.

[Benzene]

Thanks for the Plug Josh
See you at my home on Sat.

[KD5MDK]

Never seen a deposit before. Different places, different ways.

[oiuyt]

Never seen a deposit before. Different places, different ways.

It's something that New England division has done for quite a while that then got picked up by the Section and, at times, Connecticut division. I think Northeast division also uses or has used the system at times, although I can't recall for certain.

Since it's being discussed above without explicit information, here's how it works. At the beginning of the day each entrant hands over a $5 deposit (at the same time as registering for his/her first event of the day). At the conclusion of fencing (for that athlete, rather than at the end of the tournament) s/he is obligated to do "something" to earn it back. Examples include scorekeeping/timing one or more bouts, general clean-up/tidying, disassembly/breakdown of strips, or whatever else the organizer(s) can come up with. This is frequently at best a nominal task. Once the task is completed the deposit can be reclaimed.

The idea, as mentioned above, was to remove the problem of volunteer organizers being stuck with a massive load of work after a long day running an event. In practice there are so many hands available (due in large part to the deposit system) that there tends to be very little for each to do.

It really shouldn't be included in a description of tournament fees as the net result should be $0 (and in practice it generally works out very close to this, given the small nature of the required tasks to reclaim the money).

Josh- You mentioned RIFAC not hosting USFA tournaments. Have they reconfigured the space such that it's no longer possible? Certainly I've fenced/reffed/coached at a number of RIFAC tournaments in the past, although not recently.

-B

[oiuyt]

<SNIP>

I know I like thread-drift, but this is just rediculous. If you must post this please leave it in the thread you created for the purpose.

-B

[RITFencing]

... why are you posting this here?

[oiuyt]

... why are you posting this here?

He appears to be spamming a bunch of threads with it. This is (currently) the second of three (including the thread he started for the purpose).

-B

[KD5MDK]

I recall the discussion of RIFAC including mention that the strips had been set to below official sizes.

[MyrddinsPrecint]

RIFAC hasn't hosted any USFA-rated tournaments because of a few reasons. First, our space is a fair size, but the amount of fencers that we have enrolled dictated us to shrink most of our strips to non-FIE dimensions. It would be quite a crowded space if most of the strips were being used and those strips were more narrow than standard size. Second, things seem to grow legs more often when you host tourneys; weapons, masks, bags and even toilet paper and the dispenser it came in.

We have held inter-academy, non-USFA tourneys at the end of camps and class sessions but that's about it. Maybe we'll have something in the future, but I can't say anything for sure.

RIFAC hasn't hosted any tournaments this past year, that's true. However, I believe that there were three weapon specific C&unders last year there (I could be wrong, the division website is getting garbled by the computer at work...). In fact, before PdF was even seriously looking for permanent space, and BFC was in their previous location, a HUGE number of division tournaments were at RIFAC- look at, for instance, the 2000-2001 season---- http://neusfa.org/results/00-01/months0001.htm

I remember fencing Bill Hall at RIFAC. A lot. Oh, those were interesting times......

[rjroth]

True, true.

We also had a "3-weapon tournament" called the Lunge & Volley... you had to fence foil, then epee and lastly play ping-pong. It sounds fun but we haven't done it for a few years now.

Our space is in such demand on a daily basis, that having a tournament would either make it even more hectic, or would cut into days off for the staff. That's my guess.

[rjroth]

Josh- You mentioned RIFAC not hosting USFA tournaments. Have they reconfigured the space such that it's no longer possible? Certainly I've fenced/reffed/coached at a number of RIFAC tournaments in the past, although not recently.

-B

I have been fencing and recently instructing at RIFAC for just over a year now. Before that I had taken a break from fencing to concentrate on college. By what I have heard and by looking at past photos, RIFAC used to have regulation USFA/FIE strips. Due to the demand that's on the space, they were narrowed to make more strips for classes and team practice. Only the southern half of the space still has the original layout with standard strips. We've been growing so much but our space has not and its configuration needed to change to reflect that.

[oiuyt]

Mmmm, back to NJ for a minute.

This Saturday there are four epee events scheduled at NJFA. While I'm not a member of the division, I was toying with the idea of going to the meeting anyway as I'd like to compete/referee more in the state and it might be worthwhile to provide input. The events are scheduled at the same time as the meeting, which seems suboptimal. Then I decided to check the field sizes.

Event is $30 with pre-reg (by tomorrow), $50 at the door. Per event.
Open WE has 1 fencer
D3 WE has 2 fencers (including the fencer from the open event)
Open ME has 4 fencers
D3 ME has 7 fencers (none of whom are registered for the open)

Of the 10 foil events the following day (same location, same cost), four have no entries, three have a single entry, two have two entries, and one has three entries. No refunds allowed except in case of tournament cancellation.

Sabre/epee events on Sunday at Medeo are a bit better. $35 pre-reg or at the door (not penalizing walk-in fencers seems a no-brainer if fields are small).
WE: 7 fencers
WS: 6
ME: 13
MS: 9
Y14MxE: 2
Y14MxF: 3
Y14MxS: 3
Okay, the Y14 events are still in the same category as the NJFA tournament. Mix the senior events and you'd likely end up with a couple of B1 tournaments that might be worthwhile (times are paired such that this is possible, I don't know if there are any plans to do so).
$35 still seems way too much, but compared with the NJFA events this weekend it's a bargin. Medeo is also including a BBQ (hot dogs, hamburgers, s'mores are all explicitly mentioned) and movies in the parent's lounge.

I think this pretty much provides a perfect example of what RITFencing was complaining about in the OP.

-B

[RITFencing]

Brad, if you're going let me know; I have a student going down to Medeo on Friday night and NJFA on saturday (which is how I know about these things) and I can see about reffing, and possibly saying hi to my family, so I may actually be able to make it down.

[oiuyt]

I know I'm not going to pay $30 for events with such a small registration list, and I certainly won't bring equipment hoping for a strong enough walk-in field to be worth $50. I'm still strongly considering going up just for the meeting, but availability depends on plans with my better half for the weekend.

I also have a student registered for the NJFA events.

The Medeo event is more likely to get me as a fencer (ideally for both epee and sabre, but $70 for an evening's fencing seems excessive -- I'm having trouble justifying either event for $35). Might be a day-of decision, but right now I'd say it's very unlikely.

-B

[Peach]

Mix the senior events and you'd likely end up with a couple of B1 tournaments that might be worthwhile (times are paired such that this is possible, I don't know if there are any plans to do so).

Side note: I hope not. I want competent female competition & that's why I'm going. "Worthwhile" has different definitions for different people.

[RITFencing]

I meant for the meeting; Jeff agreed to bring up my point, and if you're there too, then I might go down and make it three. If I go, it would be to ref, not fence.

EDIT: And to ***** and moan of course.

[oiuyt]

Side note: I hope not. I want competent female competition & that's why I'm going. "Worthwhile" has different definitions for different people.

True.

-B

[rjroth]

Could NJ tourneys be so expensive because there is such a large and successful high school and college fencing scene? Are students too involved in NCAA and state competitions and therefore don't go to as many NJUSFA events?

How about taxes? I grew up in Jersey too and the property taxes are just disgusting along with the cost of living in general. Are NJ clubs just trying to keep up with the costs of running a business, profit or non-profit?

[keropie]

<threadjack>

BBQ (hot dogs, hamburgers, s'mores are all explicitly mentioned)

Damn Northerners >< BBQ <> hotdogs OR hamburgers OR s'mores

BBQ = slow cooked pork in vinegar >< >< ><
</threadjack>

Yes, I think these prices are nutty. And not in the good 'nutty ice cream' kind of way, but more in the bad 'the Atlanta Braves are nutty bad this year' kinda way. I tend to see events more @10 or 15 dollars down here, no registration fee. Now, we rarely have officials who aren't fencing (though some of our fencers are at least decent officials), but we've had 30 or 40 person fields in some weapons down here (sorry Brad, our saber fields tend to be smaller).