If you deny a man a profit you will make him dishonest!
NJ is expensive (and not just fencing). Anyone who lives here knows that.
Yes, $30 for an 8 person event is pricey but I doubt the organizers expected such a small turnout. Regardless, they still have fixed expenses that are now spread out over a smaller field.
If you chose not to fence to protest higher prices, so be it. But, based on record turnouts last year in all repeating tournaments, most experiencing double digit increases, you will do little to deter this.
Saturday's Tournament Committee meeting should be very interesting and LIVELY. (I am sorry I am missing it). Rumors have it that the new Chair wants a tournament every weekend that doesn't conflict with a NAC or an important HS event. This will definately lead to smaller tournaments.
Stay tuned.....
__________________
NJ, if you can surf here you can surf anywhere.
The Division does have the right to charge the clubs $5 per fencer for sanctioned events, but it waived those fees last year and maybe the year before that, and will probably waive them again this year.
So I would expect that sanctioning fee to reappear starting Saturday.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SurfingFoil
NJ is expensive (and not just fencing). Anyone who lives here knows that.
Yes, NJ is expensive (and I DO live here). So is Boston (where I used to live). Yet they routinely have stronger events at a third of the cost. Without being forced into dishonesty (re: your post title).
Quote:
Originally Posted by SurfingFoil
If you chose not to fence to protest higher prices, so be it. But, based on record turnouts last year in all repeating tournaments, most experiencing double digit increases, you will do little to deter this.
That was actually one of the points I made in my first post (post #2 on the thread) that market forces were doing little to rein in ever upwardly spiraling fees.
Although one thing to point out -- If people are really this price-insensitive to entry fees in the $30+ range then we really shouldn't be hearing any complaints about what the USFA offers for $50/year. That completely disappears just in the increase in costs for a typical competitive schedule.
Another interesting tidbit from the Letter from the Chair (not directly related to the current conversation) is that Frank is targetting 50% membership growth in the current season. Also a series of incentives and benefits for clubs (which I guess does tie back into the current discussion as the thousands of dollars that can be made hosting high-priced tournaments is a fairly nice benefit :) ).
Another unrelated bit:
• Develop a public relations and media campaign.
• Ensure that sanctioned events are parent and audience-friendly in terms of the organization and appearance of the competitions.
It'll be interesting to see how that's implemented.
Okay, back to your regularly scheduled discusion (now that I've partially satisfied the requirements of the "Oiuyt Protocol").
-B
__________________
"Oh but you can't expect to wield supreme executive power just because some watery tart threw a sword at you!"
NJ is expensive (and not just fencing). Anyone who lives here knows that.
Yes... I grew up there, spent part of this summer there and will be moving back in the winter. I am well aware of how expensive it is. However, when I can go to Epeepalooza or a Mercury Cup in Manhattan for 15 dollars and a 20 round trip train ticket, I begin to wonder why I should shell out 30 plus gas for a ho hum event in NJ. I guess the reason they keep prices down there is because Manhattan is so cheap.
[quote]Yes, $30 for an 8 person event is pricey but I doubt the organizers expected such a small turnout. Regardless, they still have fixed expenses that are now spread out over a smaller field.
If you chose not to fence to protest higher prices, so be it. But, based on record turnouts last year in all repeating tournaments, most experiencing double digit increases, you will do little to deter this.[quote]
Very true. Hence this thread. I will later be reviewing and revising it and sending it to the div officers and eventurally posting it on the NJ Fencing message board.
Quote:
Saturday's Tournament Committee meeting should be very interesting and LIVELY. (I am sorry I am missing it). Rumors have it that the new Chair wants a tournament every weekend that doesn't conflict with a NAC or an important HS event. This will definately lead to smaller tournaments.
Stay tuned.....
I too am sorry I am missing this... however, I am in Rochester, NY right now and I frankly cannot afford the 80 dollars in gas the round trip would require.
None of the information in this thread has really pointed out a definitive reason why prices are so damned high in NJ as opposed to other high income, high cost of living areas. There have been some good theories, but not real conclusions. Is it simply that tournament organizers are finding out that they can charge these prices and still have people show up? Seems like the lower income fencers are getting a french grip where the sun don't shine if that's the case.
__________________
"If I were ever to challenge you to a duel, your best bet would be battle axes in a very dark basement." Misquoted from The Prisoner
"Technical excellence is the antecedant of tactical creativity." - Nat Goodhartz
But those things which belong neither to God nor to Caeser, feeleth free to writeth them off, for yea, they are deductable.
I too am sorry I am missing this... however, I am in Rochester, NY right now and I frankly cannot afford the 80 dollars in gas the round trip would require.
What if it included a 10-person tournament too? :)
-B
__________________
"Oh but you can't expect to wield supreme executive power just because some watery tart threw a sword at you!"
I just read over the Letter From The Chair. I am unfamiliar with Mr. Mustilli, can anyone fill me in as to his background? Anyway, here are a few initial responses:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Mustilli
CHAIRMAN’S LETTER
FRANK MUSTILLI
Mission: To establish a fencer, parent friendly fencing environment
On August 5th, the first 2006-2007 fencing season Executive Committee and Tournament committee meetings will be held in Maplewood, NJ. At this meeting I will introduce to the committees a strategic plan. The plan will outline, for this season, a mission statement, goals and specific key objectives, all of which are achievable with everyone’s assistance.
Wish I could attend this, however a person who shall remain nameless has agreed to bring up my grievances.
Quote:
I expect that both committees will expeditiously review, discuss and revise the strategic plan without altering the mission statement’s intent, which is to establish a fencer- parent friendly fencing environment. I believe that we can reach a consensus on the strategic direction for the organization's resources, manpower, and skills for the upcoming season.
The 2006-2007 strategic plan includes numerous action steps and performance measures. I will focus on the mission statement and goals that are highlighted by key objectives, espe*cially those that represent a new focus for the NJ Division.
The Mission of the NJ Division of the USFA is to:
• Promote, encourage, and develop the sport of fencing at all levels from recreational to Olympian;
• Develop programs, services and opportunities that enable our members to reach their maximum potential;
• Sponsor, manage, and oversee local competitions and tournaments for fencers of all ages and competitive abilities;
• Promote participation in the local, Sectional, Regional and National competitions sponsored by the USFA; and
• Assist the USFA in accomplishing its objectives and purposes.
Standard stuff so far.
Quote:
GOALS:
1. To Expand Membership
Objectives:
• Grow current club base through incentives, recognition and benefits provided.
• Develop a plan to increase membership by 50% by July 2007.
The first goal makes me very curious, but in a good way. If they are offering incentives for those starting up clubs, that may be very good for me as an aspiring coach.
The second may seem unreasonable, but given the immense number of high school fencers (it is the focus of the state, really) it may be achieveable with help from the coaches and ADs of those teams. I think I will talk with my AD about possibly obtaining some aid from the school for students who want to join the USFA.
Quote:
2. To Increase Division Revenues
Objectives:
• Re-instate club sanction fees.
• Increase new memberships
As Ouiyt pointed out, the current lack of Sanction fees and the fact that they will be reinstated makes me cringe with the pricing situation as it is.
I've already discussed the memberships.
Quote:
3. To Increase Public Interest in Fencing
Objectives:
• Develop a public relations and media campaign.
• Ensure that sanctioned events are parent and audience-friendly in terms of the organization and appearance of the competitions.
PR and a media campaign? Possibly effective, possibly very pricey. If handled well, it could be a great thing, and an example to other divisions.
Better organized tournaments? I am behind this one hundred percent! Personally, I think that along with referee seminars, or at least as part of one, there should be tournament organization seminars.
Quote:
4. To Enhance the Efficiency and Organizational Effectiveness of the Division
Objectives:
• Provide better membership service by requiring venues to comply with USFA
standards and the Division’s Memorandum Of Understanding
• Provide better membership service through the continued enhancement to the automated entry form.
No problems here. Better venues and more FRED.
Quote:
5. To re-establish the NJ Division as the fencing Mecca of the USA.
Objectives:
• Achieve success in qualification and medal performance for individuals and teams at local, Sectional, Regional and National events.
Not to get down on my home state, but this is a common fallacy there, that NJ either was or currently is the home of the best fencing in the USA... it isn't. There are a few very skilled fencers in NJ; Jesse Schibilia comes to mind, as does Noah Zucker. There are some very strong clubs and good coaches, too. There is, however, no place that can really rival the Women's Foil of Rochester Fencing Club, the everything of the NYAC or Fencer's Club, the sabre at OFA, the epee and foil at NCF... I could go on.
NJ Fencing is not now, nor ever was the "Mecca of Fencing." This is actually why I asked about Mister Mustilli's background; this statement makes me wonder about his knowledge and experience of the world outside his division. No offense to him intended.
EDIT: I retract this above statement. See Peach's post below.
Quote:
6. To train, qualify and increase the classification of our referees.
Objectives:
• Provide the necessary referee training to our membership ensuring thus ensuring
their utilization at local, sectional, regional, national and world competitions.
This is sorely needed... those referees that are rated or have some experience tend to get very uppity about their skills, which are sadly not that good. I know one referee who's highest ratings are not high at all and yet acts like god's gift to the strip. Mauler could tell you about another one in a similar position.
Quote:
I believe that this strategic plan is achievable, and look forward working with you (our membership) in support of accomplishing our goal of providing our membership with the best fencing opportunities in the country while satisfying the mission of making the
NEW JERSEY DIVISION A FENCER / PARENT FRIENDLY ENVIRONMENT.
You've got an ambitious plan ahead of you, Mister Chairman. I wish you well in it; you are definately on the right track with most things.
One thing I would ask is that a "Fencer / Parent friendly environment" be a bit better defined... does it mean more events? Lower fees? More services?
Now that I think on it, it does seem to say that the focus will be on the younger fencers who need their parents to drive them out, pay for them, etc. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but don't forget those of us out of high school too!
__________________
"If I were ever to challenge you to a duel, your best bet would be battle axes in a very dark basement." Misquoted from The Prisoner
"Technical excellence is the antecedant of tactical creativity." - Nat Goodhartz
But those things which belong neither to God nor to Caeser, feeleth free to writeth them off, for yea, they are deductable.
Last edited by RITFencing; 08-02-2006 at 11:38 AM..
Over the course of this tournament, they could actually probably insert the french grip for free, too!
Oh, wait, it's NJ---- they'll charge you for that, won't they?
Yyyyyyup. But hey, if they want me to referee and are willing to pay gas as well as my per diem, I can handle that.
__________________
"If I were ever to challenge you to a duel, your best bet would be battle axes in a very dark basement." Misquoted from The Prisoner
"Technical excellence is the antecedant of tactical creativity." - Nat Goodhartz
But those things which belong neither to God nor to Caeser, feeleth free to writeth them off, for yea, they are deductable.
None of the information in this thread has really pointed out a definitive reason why prices are so damned high in NJ as opposed to other high income, high cost of living areas.
Well, Jersey isn't the only place with expensive events (an internal, non-sactioned tournament held by the Virginia Academy of Fencing in Fairfax County, VA):
IN PREPARATION FOR THE NEW YORKSUPER REGIONAL YOUTH CIRCUIT YOUTH ELECTRIC FOIL COMPETITION SUNDAY, APRIL 30, 2006 @ 2:00 pm
DEADLINE FOR PRE-REGISTRATION
Registration form and payment must be recieved by Thursday, April 27, 2006. Cost is $45 per person prior to the deadline; $90 per event per person for entriesafter the deadline or at the competition.
EVENTS:
Youth 10 Open Electric Foil
Youth 12 Open Electric Foil
Youth 14 Open Electric Foil
Age restrictions comply with United sates Fencing Association requirements; however, depending on configuration of registrations, events may be combined.
Competition(s) will be conducted in accordance with USFA rules and regulations. All participants must have working competitive electric equipment in accordance with USFA requirements.
Check in opens on Sunday, April 30, 2006 at 1:00pm CLOSE OF CHECK-IN IS 2:00 PM.
Yeeeeeouch. 45 preregistered? What's the standard (is there a standard) for an RYC?
__________________
"If I were ever to challenge you to a duel, your best bet would be battle axes in a very dark basement." Misquoted from The Prisoner
"Technical excellence is the antecedant of tactical creativity." - Nat Goodhartz
But those things which belong neither to God nor to Caeser, feeleth free to writeth them off, for yea, they are deductable.
This is actually why I asked about Mister Mustilli's background; this statement makes me wonder about his knowledge and experience of the world outside his division. No offense to him intended.
Frank's been around for a long time and is very knowledgeable, as well as energetic and enthusiastic. He fenced and is a coach, and his daughters Nicole and Marisa were among the first and the best of the women's sabre fencers, Nicole continuing to be one of the top ones for many years. Think of this as a mission statement meant to inspire rather than a statement of fact. Just as the place I work uses "premier" in its statement.
__________________ I'm not anonymous. We just haven't been properly introduced.
Gotcha. I'll go edit that, then. Sounds like a good choice for chair.
__________________
"If I were ever to challenge you to a duel, your best bet would be battle axes in a very dark basement." Misquoted from The Prisoner
"Technical excellence is the antecedant of tactical creativity." - Nat Goodhartz
But those things which belong neither to God nor to Caeser, feeleth free to writeth them off, for yea, they are deductable.
It is, however, something of a prevailing opinion (stemming, I think, from a lot of high school fencers and parents who think the HS circuit is meaningful in the grand scheme of fencing) that NJ fencing is this amazing thing. That attitude can lead young NJ fencers to trouble if they go off to school elsewhere. (Speaking from experience here.)
__________________
"If I were ever to challenge you to a duel, your best bet would be battle axes in a very dark basement." Misquoted from The Prisoner
"Technical excellence is the antecedant of tactical creativity." - Nat Goodhartz
But those things which belong neither to God nor to Caeser, feeleth free to writeth them off, for yea, they are deductable.
NJ traditionally has had very strong Nat'l fencers. Not everyone in the state is exclusively hung up on HS fencing. Last year's Nat'l Cadet And Jr team comparison by State shows what NJ fencing's problem has been for the past few years... By State: NJ had 8 fencers out of the 36 Nat'l team slots,
Calif, NY and Texas had 6 apiece, Oregon had 5, Pa 2, Minn 1, Ga. 1, Wash DC 1.
Out of the 8 NJ fencers, 7 do not fence in the NJ division. Linsay Knauer is South Jersey (2 slots) Abby C. Janto, Caroline Vloka(2 slots), Raz Davidson, and Teddy Sherrill all register as Metro Div fencers and are members of the FC or PWF
Only Alex Ochocki is registered as a NJ fencer.
Reasons why : Bad management in the NJ division in years past, too much being made of HS fencing and no coaches or clubs capable of developing nat'l fencers. By the way Janto and Vloka fence for their HS's when they can and Sherrill (now at Harvard) fenced for his HS also
Too many people in NJ believe like you were led to believe that success in the NJ high school system is important, All of the nat'l kids and many parents know now that HS fencing is fun, Nat'l fencing gets you into college.
Yeeeeeouch. 45 preregistered? What's the standard (is there a standard) for an RYC?
$20-30. Areas which require larger venues can charge more with pre-approval.
The SYC mentioned had a $30 reg, $30/event fee.
Yes, this VAF event would also qualify as excessive in my opinion. :)
In addition to Peach's note:
Quote:
Originally Posted by NJFA website
Frank A. Mustilli
Head Coach, President, Founder
E-mail me!
Founder and executive director of NJFA. Fencing experience as both competitor and coach. Former Sabre fencer at Montclair State University. Placed 6th at the 1998 Nike World Masters Games in foil and led mens foil team to victory. Led prestigious Columbia High School fencing program from 1991-2003, producing numerous national, NCAA, and world champions.
-B
__________________
"Oh but you can't expect to wield supreme executive power just because some watery tart threw a sword at you!"
Too many people in NJ believe like you were led to believe that success in the NJ high school system is important, All of the nat'l kids and many parents know now that HS fencing is fun, Nat'l fencing gets you into college.
Those who succeed nationally, yes. However, the sheer mass of people who believe otherwise is depressing. I get this from conversations with parents, HS coaches, fencers and college coaches; many (but not all) in the div need to open their eyes and look at the bigger picture.
Also, regardless of where those fencers live... if Jesse Schibilia, Teddy Sherril and the like train in Metro NYC, then I am going to consider them Metro NYC fencers. The residence of a fencer doesn't matter so much as where they train and compete.
__________________
"If I were ever to challenge you to a duel, your best bet would be battle axes in a very dark basement." Misquoted from The Prisoner
"Technical excellence is the antecedant of tactical creativity." - Nat Goodhartz
But those things which belong neither to God nor to Caeser, feeleth free to writeth them off, for yea, they are deductable.
If you're within driving distance (and by 'driving distance' I mean 'gas budget', but that's another conversation) then go to the Epee Open at Fishkill Fencers every third Wednesday of the month. They usually have 20 or more epeeists and will more than likely be a B2... and it's only $5, plus they have free water/gatorade and cookies... I mean C'MON! They're a down-to-earth, epee-only club that values having a good time while being competitive at the same time.
I try to drive down from Rhode Island to Fishkill, NY every month to catch their tourneys. Check them out at fishkillfencers.com .
__________________
"If I were ever to challenge you to a duel, your best bet would be battle axes in a very dark basement." Misquoted from The Prisoner
"Technical excellence is the antecedant of tactical creativity." - Nat Goodhartz
But those things which belong neither to God nor to Caeser, feeleth free to writeth them off, for yea, they are deductable.
Although the New England Division does have required deposits, only some clubs actually enforce it. (I won't say which, but I don't blame them for not doing it)
Just because of geographic reasons, certain fencers attend certain tournaments at certain clubs. There are some of these fencers who willingly participate and volunteer to help run a tournament. However, just because of where they go and where they don't go to fence in tournaments, some clubs get more than enough help and some don't get any help. In this case, a deposit is a good solution.
Depending on how well your tournament logistics are and how you manage a tournament depends on how much help you need. Those clubs who have the experience and technology to run a great tournament don't need everyone to pitch in and hence, don't need to take deposits.
Basically, if a club thinks it's going to need to take a deposit to run the tourney smoothly, it will take one. If not, just the standard New England Division $10 fee will apply.
OK... enough about deposits... back to RIFAC...
RIFAC hasn't hosted any USFA-rated tournaments because of a few reasons. First, our space is a fair size, but the amount of fencers that we have enrolled dictated us to shrink most of our strips to non-FIE dimensions. It would be quite a crowded space if most of the strips were being used and those strips were more narrow than standard size. Second, things seem to grow legs more often when you host tourneys; weapons, masks, bags and even toilet paper and the dispenser it came in.
We have held inter-academy, non-USFA tourneys at the end of camps and class sessions but that's about it. Maybe we'll have something in the future, but I can't say anything for sure.
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