An open question for the tournament organizers and div officers in New Jersey

[keith]

Originally Posted by reawl

If the market can be shown to bear increased rates, then good business sense says to charge those higher rates.

well clearly at the top end NACs and large regional opens this makes perfect sense. The pomme is certainly more expensive than other NE competitions but it still counts as good value. On the other hand most other large opens around here are populated by the usual suspects (as in any area) so at what point is traveling to open fencing at a different club a better option than forking out petrol and $30 for a competition?

If you want to pull people into the sport attending competitions can be important especially at the fun/social end of the spectrum. So while making a profit is important it should not be the only factor driving the pricing.

Of course the low cost/good value of NE competitions is certainly a benefit but from my own experience cheap entry does not guarantee attendance, available time or the amount of wine I drink for lunch tends to be more significant.

[Mauler]

Originally Posted by KD5MDK

I'm still boggling at some of the referee payscales you're mentioning. When I had my 7, I was making $40 a day, and now that I've earned my 4, I'm all the way up to $60.

Even before I had my 5, I've been known to hit places where they pay per-round, per-bout, per-event or other variations (i.e. $30 for each pool, $5 for each DE processed, etc)... To put it mildly, I'm somewhat of a workaholic. From 2 days of refereeing at a local-level weekend USFA event, I could EASILY walk away with more profit than I do these days at a full-NAC (4 days honorarium plus 6 days per diem) with my 4 rating. Btw, I'm only talking about the times when I reffed only 1 tournament/location per day.

Mind you, I'm one inhumanely-efficient bastard if they need me to be. At National-level events, I have to slow myself down drastically and do my best to force myself to "take it easy" because priorities are different. But at certain local-level events that are more "business-oriented," they take off the muzzle and let me loose.

My usual clients knew that if they stick me with a strip/round/event(s), it would take care of itself, and it would get done ASAP. And they knew that they can trust me to stand there from 8am til 9pm (some are consistently , horribly disorganized), non-stop, with no breaks, shifting back and forth between 3 weapons with no "transition problems," taking on all the "potentially problematic bouts" nobody else wants, whatnot. Somewhere much further down on the list of priorities was something about the quality/accuracy of my calls, which improved with time.

There are others like myself who are willing to serve this niche of the market. "Normal" referees are certainly not expected nor required to go as crazy. Those who do, however, do get compensated accordingly (i.e. beyond published pay scale) if they identify themselves as such and consistently show exceptional productivity.

[Mauler]

Originally Posted by oiuyt

ESG is a specical case as they have outside sources of funding, other than the athletes.

Empire State Games is fully funded by NYS Dept of Parks and Recreation, NYS Lottery, various private corporate sponsors and advertisers. EVERYTHING is paid for. Transportation, food, uniform (full warm-ups and some sport-specific wears), lodging, rental of facilities, etc.

Having said that.....

At Empire State Games, NOBODY gets paid as far as actual sport-specific participants are concerned. Organizers, coaches, referees are 100% volunteers. Despite extremely unpleasant experiences that are typically associated with participation, ESG is among a handful of reffing gigs that I have a personal attachment to, and would be willing to provide my service for free and/or for substantially below market price....

[RITFencing]

Originally Posted by reawl

I know some fencers will be excluded because of illedged budget constraints (do you really need to go to the bar and order pizza if fencing is REALLY a priority?), and others will be excluded because of actual budget constraints (ie. a family depending on their income).

But why do people continue to treat the sport like it is a charity? This is by no means a personal attack to RITF, but rather this seems to be the general attitude of many fencing clubs. "Let's give members a lot and charge them a little".

If the market can be shown to bear increased rates, then good business sense says to charge those higher rates.

I really don't think it's that simple. Sure, if every family out there is made of money, charge what you will. But what about those with kids who really love fencing and please please please can't they go to all these tournaments so they can make varsity this year and they promise to do all their chores and mow the lawn, etc. Generally, the parents pay that, and then have less money for other things. Mine did, back in the day.

And yes, it is good business sense. That doesn't make it ethical. Look at the sort of price gouging that goes on before hurricanes strike. 6 dollars for a gallon of gas? By this reasoning, it's fine, because people will pay it. That doesn't make it right.

I realize that a hurricane is a rather extreme example. But there's such a thing as a reasonable price, and these tournaments are really beginning to excede it.

Furthermor, Reawl, you of all people know what it's like fencing on a tight budget, and should be aware of how many people, especially college students, do so. Unreasonable prices for entry do not help this along.

[darius]

And yes, it is good business sense. That doesn't make it ethical. Look at the sort of price gouging that goes on before hurricanes strike. 6 dollars for a gallon of gas? By this reasoning, it's fine, because people will pay it. That doesn't make it right.

That's actually illegal.

There's a happy medium; folks are entitled to a reasonable profit, especially if they're making a living at fencing, which ain't exactly your standard 9-5 with a pension.

I realize that a hurricane is a rather extreme example. But there's such a thing as a reasonable price, and these tournaments are really beginning to excede it.

Are they? The question is, are they pricing themselves out of the market? At some point, if prices continue going up, demand should lessen. If demand continues to rise despite prices rising, there's not particularly anything wrong with that, especially since space constraints seem to be a big deal at pretty much every tournament outside of Pomme and Duel.

Furthermor, Reawl, you of all people know what it's like fencing on a tight budget, and should be aware of how many people, especially college students, do so. Unreasonable prices for entry do not help this along.

In WNY, where prices are already reasonable, we have a discount for college students. I'd love to see more events do that. Of course, we usually rely heavily on self-refereeing (with gratuit entry or at least some monetary token of goodwill) and don't take home much profit at the end of the day.

darius

[KD5MDK]

Are there competing tournaments in nearby divisions? Perhaps a division might adopt a policy "if tournament entry fee exceeds X, other tournaments on the same weekend with lower entry fees may be sanctioned".

The thing is, if tournament fees are being set in a free market, then organizers should be allowed to charge whatever they want, and fencers will avoid the tournaments that are too expensive, and go to cheaper ones elsewhere. (Although gas prices may make going too far for a cheaper tournament a money-losing proposition in general). With the gas example, it should be noted that a higher price discourages people from buying more than they need, so there's more left for other people, instead of the station running out and latecomers being unable to buy gas at all. In theory.

However, if an outside entity is setting tournament fees, or substantially interfering with them, then I would say that price regulation is a legitimate local political issue, and it can be justifiably said to be set too high.

[AndrewH]

NJ pays directors very well. I can't complain at all but this would contribute to the higher fees.

I've decided that I'm only going to fence in two or three division events this year. Div II qualifier, Sr. Sectionals (which technically isn't a division event anyway) and maybe one or two sabre events if they look to be well attended. Last year I went to an open in October, paid $30 entry for a self-directed 15 person tournament. At that point I decided I'd rather save that money towards NAC's/summer nationals.

Hopefully the high prices will drive everyone else towards the same strategy, and create a handful of well-populated events. Of course, this doesn't help out the beginners any...

[epeeisky]

Originally Posted by RITFencing

And yes, it is good business sense. That doesn't make it ethical. Look at the sort of price gouging that goes on before hurricanes strike. 6 dollars for a gallon of gas? By this reasoning, it's fine, because people will pay it. That doesn't make it right.

This is highly illegal. During Katrina/Rita many people were arrested and fined for selling gas(also food and a couple other things) at double or triple the going rate. The tournament organizers in New Jersey are doing nothing illegal. You are right that raising the price to find the market breaking point is severly immoral, but when mommy and daddy are willing to keep shelling out the dough so that Betty can fence this will continue to be the problem.

[RITFencing]

Originally Posted by AndrewH

NJ pays directors very well. I can't complain at all but this would contribute to the higher fees.

I've decided that I'm only going to fence in two or three division events this year. Div II qualifier, Sr. Sectionals (which technically isn't a division event anyway) and maybe one or two sabre events if they look to be well attended. Last year I went to an open in October, paid $30 entry for a self-directed 15 person tournament. At that point I decided I'd rather save that money towards NAC's/summer nationals.

Hopefully the high prices will drive everyone else towards the same strategy, and create a handful of well-populated events. Of course, this doesn't help out the beginners any...

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Especially for a self reffed event...

[RITFencing]

Originally Posted by epeeisky

This is highly illegal. During Katrina/Rita many people were arrested and fined for selling gas(also food and a couple other things) at double or triple the going rate. The tournament organizers in New Jersey are doing nothing illegal. You are right that raising the price to find the market breaking point is severly immoral, but when mommy and daddy are willing to keep shelling out the dough so that Betty can fence this will continue to be the problem.

Yeah, as I said the hurricane example is a very extreme one, but it is an example of people setting exhorbitant prices because they know that the customers will pay.

Darius talked about a middle ground where the club can still make money. Given that tournaments I have been to in other divisions in non-college or YMCA clubs (as in a club with it's own dedicated space to worry about the costs of) are still very cheap, I would have to posit that it is possible to make a decent amount of money with lower prices than are currently being charged in NJ. I have to become even more curious about events that charge so much and are self reffed... exactly where does that money go?

As a referee, I would be willing to take a pay cut at NJ events to lower the price. I remember how much of a pain it was when I was younger and trying to convince my parents to take me to JO Qualifiers or some open.

[Mauler]

Originally Posted by AndrewH

NJ pays directors very well. I can't complain at all but this would contribute to the higher fees.

NJ HS meets pay very well. NJ USFA events, however, do not. Compared to what's out there, I'd rate it fair to decent.

I'm not affiliated in any shape or form with the tournament organizers, division officers, clubs nor am I a division member. I don't teach here, I don't fence here, blah blah blah. My experience with the NJ fencing scene has been limited to several USFA events (qualifiers mostly) and HS meets that I came to ref at during last 2 years.

I'm a fairly well-travelled referee throughout the season, so I get to see different business models and local "fencing cultures" during my reffing gigs. Every community comes to figure out what works for them best in the end.

There is one thing that really struck me as odd in NJ, though. The whole deal about renting space for so many "division events" throughout the season.... which, I would imagine, must be incredibly expensive. No other division I ref at does that on such a regular basis. I am not knowledgeable in any political history behind that "policy." But from what little of exposure I've had in the NJ scene, I can see how things can potentially get very ugly otherwise.

Directly related to the topic of "having to rent space," I'd suspect, is how large some of the tournaments get, especially the qualifiers. Granted, NJ Division enjoys among the largest membership in the country. But some of the events' scheduling seem way too ambitious. Certainly beyond the capability and resources that are normally be available. Add to that an emergency or two (i.e. venue rental deal falls out at the last minute and qualifiers need to be rescheduled/consolidated into next available venue/weekend), and you automatically start the day from hell.... And if everyone chips in and works really really hard, you can perhaps downgrade it to a simple nightmare.

From what I gather, NJ community is very encouraging and friendly to multi-age-group/event fencers. While that's a great thing to promote, organization of division tournaments is not properly prepared to accomodate that need. Multi-weapon fencers are expected to hop from one event to another (scheduled in the same day), oftentimes completely freezing entire event for a substantial block of time (because such talents also tend to be high achievers within each event, bless them) as well as subjecting them to a greater fatigue and chances of injury.

Subjectively speaking, whenever I report to a NJ gig, I brace myself for taking on what would amount to perhaps 2 or even 3 weekends' worth of work anywhere else. Personally, I welcome that. I love the practice, and heck, it's even a good exercise for me (read Mauler's diet thread). And in some cases, that workload may even be planned/agreed in advance to balance the cost (i.e. west coast or southern folks flying me for local events). But in no way should normal, sane folks be subjected to that sort of condition (with the exception of national level, which also suffers from extremely large overhead).

But in any given weekend, to a typical pool of quality referees in the immediate area (NJ, NYC, WR, CT, LI) who are actively seeking out gigs (and there is a LOT), conditions in NJ tournaments is a big turn-off and they oftentimes go elsewhere.

I understand that there are some changes on the way, including distributing the hosting responsibilities to the club-level. At a much more fundamental level, I believe that change alone provides for a path that would help the hosts design a financial/scheduling model that would alllow better-experience-per-dollar-ratio for the fencers. Fewer events will have to be scheduled per day/weekend. I can see more "specialized" fencing experience with each hosting club coming up with their unique "gimmick," which would help divide up the interest groups -- one weekend focusing on certain age group, level, or weapon, etc.

Bringing the hosting down to a smaller scale would also immediately lead to cutting the cost per fencer. What would have been expected as "a $20~30 experience" for a typical NJ fencer in the prior seasons should easily be replicated (if not made better) with $10~15 fee.

[qatet]

On the other hand (and I'll admit, I'd be quite surprised if this situation applies to NJ, considering how many clubs are in NJ), having many events in one day can be one of the only ways to get in a sufficient number of events in some divisions. Philadelphia, for instance, has relatively few events that an adult can fence in, simply because there are few venues hosting. We're lucky, as there are lots of other divisions nearby that offer more opportunities, but I'd imagine that this would be a real kicker in the middle of the country, where there are fewer clubs in general.

[Mauler]

Originally Posted by RITFencing

125 an hour for non AC'ed space? I doubt these events are charging that much... Those that don't take place in a club tend to be held in a high school or college gymnasium, or a YMCA.

You'd be surprised... When I was teaching at an upstate-NY college club, officers wanted to host an event favoring the demographics they are part of -- low-budget, beginner-to-intermediate college fencers. Rental of a basketball court-sized space in a sub-par facility would've cost $1,000 a day. It would've been much more sensible to host the event at a nearby high school, but club members were adamant that it should be hosted in the same building they practice at. Naturally, the event never took place. That space, btw, was almost always empty every weekend.

However, clubs in other parts of the country seem to make these events work for much less money... I'm aware that NJ is expensive, but so are parts of NY, New England, etc. Are things truly this expensive to run in NJ? That's what I'm trying to find out. Despite my rather exasperated tone, I really am curious as to the cause.

I see all the time how neighboring divisions tend to carry out their operations at substantially lower fee for the fencers, and yet provide much more pleasant experience for all (hosts themselves, referees, fencers, parents, etc). As mentioned in the earlier reply, one biggest fundamental difference I see in NJ is that space is expected to be a rental. I do not know why or how that has come into place, other than a suspicion that it has political reason. I don't buy the myth that high referee fee is where the money is going, or that increasing the referee fee will bring back quality refereeing into the division. While there's a correlation, that's not the primary factor.

[telkanuru]

Getting rid of the guy who says "no, I'm sorry, you waved your point around and that confused your opponent, so I can't award a touch" will help bring quality refereeing back to the division, though

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by Mauler

Bringing the hosting down to a smaller scale would also immediately lead to cutting the cost per fencer. What would have been expected as "a $20~30 experience" for a typical NJ fencer in the prior seasons should easily be replicated (if not made better) with $10~15 fee.

Except this is contrary to the observed experience of the OP.

Okay, I'll go look for some actual data. Looking at FRED, and discarding the BCAF events (as mentioned above BCAF does not seem to be taking the same path as several other division clubs).

7/30 D3 and Open foil @ NJFA:
$30 pre-reg, $50 door
8 fencers in each event

7/22 Escrime for Ice Cream Open Epee @ Medeo
$30 (ice cream included)
15 fencers for mixed, 3 for women

7/15-16 Garden State Games
$20 reg + $15/event
12 of 18 events were smaller than 15 fencers, only 1 event had more than 20

7/1 Y10/Y12 sabre @ RSFA
$30 first event, $10 additional
no results listed, but I'm guessing this wasn't a huge event...

Several other RSFA events without results posted

6/16 Friday Night D3 M/WF @ Medeo
cost?
19 men, 17 women

6/11 Y12 events @ Medeo
$30
7 epee, 17 foil, 11 sabre

6/11 Medeo Sabre Shootout
$30
27 men, 12 women (decent strength, out-of-the-ordinary prizes, this might be the one event I've list so far that is worth the extra money)

And so on back in time.

The events generally aren't strong or large. These are small scale. And the price seems to be consistently at least $30 (up from the "standard" of $25 at the beginning of the season). With the exception of GSG I believe these all took place in dedicated fencing venues. $30 for a 7 or 8-person event feels excessive to me. Unless those 8 are all ranked in the US top-10 or so. :) Heck, a 10-person event could be even worse, at least with as few as 8 people one is likely to get to fence a large pool.

-B

[RITFencing]

Originally Posted by Mauler

I see all the time how neighboring divisions tend to carry out their operations at substantially lower fee for the fencers, and yet provide much more pleasant experience for all (hosts themselves, referees, fencers, parents, etc). As mentioned in the earlier reply, one biggest fundamental difference I see in NJ is that space is expected to be a rental. I do not know why or how that has come into place, other than a suspicion that it has political reason. I don't buy the myth that high referee fee is where the money is going, or that increasing the referee fee will bring back quality refereeing into the division. While there's a correlation, that's not the primary factor.

Dealing with the space rental... many of the tournaments I see listed are held at clubs with a dedicated space, either one fo the more established clubs in the state like BCAF, Medeo, FASJ, NJFA, or a new club like RSFA, or in a high school or college gym.

I don't know how much HS and college gymnasiums cost to rent out; is it a similar fee? I would think slightly smaller, given the non profit nature of the organization.