Division tournaments: cost?

[RITFencing]

Cville, I could honestly care less about the legality of the situation, just the ethics and reprocussions on the fencing community.

[CvilleFencer]

Cville, I could honestly care less about the legality of the situation, just the ethics and reprocussions on the fencing community.

Hmmm, somehow I feel like I am missing something in the exchange between yourself, me and FencerX...

My last post was in response to what I thought Fencer X was saying, that in essence, fencing divisions that set prices or guidelines for club ran events in order to be sanctioned voliate antitrust laws in a criminal manor.

As to the ethics of the situation, I think that letting the clubs with very wealthy members "price out" the poorer clubs from competition is blatently unfair and the divisions should do whatever they can to discourage it. If the division tends to support such descrimination by charging such high prices that the poorer clubs cannot host tourneys profitably, there is a simple method of fixing that problem. Vote their asses out of office. Not so if it is the reverse situation. The only tool the division has for regulating what goes on is to control the sanctioning of tourneys to it's guidelines.

[RITFencing]

My mistake, I thought that was directed at me, since I had brought up the whole 'high priced division' issue.

[lovetofence]

In the Pacific Coast section an upcoming Jr. tournament is charging $30 as a registration fee and $25 per event. These fees double after a registration deadline. So, a jr. fencer "walking in" to fence 2 events can expect to pay $160.00. This is for a small RYC, mind you.

Well you might not want to send in any registration just yet for that tournament. It has not been sanctioned by the new officers yet. And yes I agree with you. That is way to much to charge for a small tournament. The Nevada Division needs to look into the price gouging since the venue is donated to the host club because the host club has a school program at the venue. Not to mention that the majority of the refs come from the host club as well and I'm sure they 'donate' their efforts.

$55 for one event? And if it is like a Y-10 saber event with only 2 fencers in it (like last year) then that is utterly ridicules to charge that amount. The PCS and the RYC Coordinator should be ashamed of themselves for allowing that to go on at one of their events. Not to mention having it put on the Section website as an event with out first getting approval from the Division with the new officers that have just come into their roles since August 1. We all know last years officers cannot sanction events in the upcoming year if new officers are going to be in the mix.
It looks to me like the Section is forcing the event on the Division by putting it on the calendar and the host club is not helping matters any by holding registration thru AskFred before it has been approved.

If a Division cannot have a say in the cost per tournament then this is what you get. I understand from the other posting that it may be illegal for a Division to do so and Im not saying that a division should break the law but this sure is a glaring example of price gouging in my eyes that needs some structure or better guidelines from the Section since it was 'approved' (not sanctioned) by them sometime in the spring of 2006.

[lovetofence]

The only tool the division has for regulating what goes on is to control the sanctioning of tourneys to it's guidelines.

Hmmm, you may have something there Cville. maybe the new officers of the Nevada Division are on the same wavelength as you.

[teacup]

Are these for the Southern California/Las Vegas event series? That's crazy. The whole point of the RYC is to offer lower priced competition opportunities, not be another way to gouge fencers. Has Lee Raymond been advising the host organizers?

I totally agree that a division cannot tell a club what to charge for an event. If the club charges too much, then fencers will not show up if the tournament is not worth it.
The problem with the RYC's and SYC's is that in order to qualify to fence in the April NAC or SN's Y10 and Y12 fencers must fence in an RYC. So if there isn't a "reasonably priced" event in their area, they must either travel, which is also expensive, or pay high fees.

[KD5MDK]

I believe the RYCs have suggested fees (20-30). If RYCs are deviating from that significantly, the RYC Coordinator probably needs to be told.

[fencerX]

Best of luck getting the FEC to look into any allegations of price fixing you may wish to levy against a nonprofit local fencing division..

FEC? Huh? The Federal Election Commision?? Yeah, I doubt the FEC would be interested in anything to do with price fixing or other anti competitive practices seeing as that the DoJ's area

I also wouldn't think the feds would have much interest in sending usfa officers to Club Fed, but that's not the main area of concern, the civil side is.

All it takes is one aggrieved club owner or other individual to sue, it needn't involve the feds.

First off, the local fencing division and the national association are basically one and the same. If you read the bylaws of most divisions, they include boilerplate about how they are part of the national association, they aren't separate non-profit entities, they can't sue anyone without the approval of the national assn and if they get sued themselves, they are to immediately notify the home office, etc.

Next, the bylaws of a number of divisions set up "Executive" or "Advisory" Boards or Committees. These Executive Committees discuss matters and make decisions at the local level. These ECs are usually made up of the USFA division officers along with a representative from each club (i.e each of the businesses).

So these ECs bring business competitors together and they meet in person, by phone or over email. They really shouldn't be discussing let alone agreeing on what each might charge for events or pay for services (e.g refs).

In some areas these USFA local Executive Committees in effect bring business competitors together to conspire to allocate and schedule events (carve up the market) and set "recommended" or "usual" or "whatever" prices. It really doesn't matter what the specific amounts of the prices are or what they're called, but rather that a bunch of business competitors got together to discuss and maybe even implicitly or explicitly agree on prices for events or refs or whatever.

Again, it doesn't matter that you're a non-profit organization, you still shouldn't be engaging in anti competitive activities, or helping others to do so.

Some other examples of abuses at the USFA local level I've heard about include ...

... a club owner being told by division officers that other fencing clubs were thinking about charging X for events and paying Y for refs and would they be willing to go along with that?

... a club owner being told by a division officer that if they don't pay refs a certain amount then a division approved rep required by the division for the event to be sanctioned wouldn't be available on the day the club wanted to hold the event (or any day for that matter was the impression).

... several cases where fencers have complained to a division chair about entry fees at club hosted events. Instead of directing the fencers to talk to the club running the event, the chairperson gleefully (mis)used the opportunity and office to pressure the club owner on behalf of the "interests of the USFA and local fencing community". The chair happens to be the owner of a competing club.

[teacup]

I believe the RYCs have suggested fees (20-30). If RYCs are deviating from that significantly, the RYC Coordinator probably needs to be told.

This is the only mention of cost I could find in the RYC handbook on the USFARYC site:

C. Cost - if renting a venue is necessary, a cost analysis of the competition is essential. Larger venues can be expensive, and could necessitate higher entry fees to cover costs.

There is also a reference to late fees.

[4qtrs]

In the Pacific Coast section an upcoming Jr. tournament is charging $30 as a registration fee and $25 per event.

In fairness, this has been the going rate for all of the PCS Jr Circuit events for at least a year. The Dawson is run by Evan Raines and has always been an excellent event for young fencers.

[4qtrs]

Events typically cost $20.

In the SoCal Division, we just voted to raise the event fee to $15 with no reg fee. It had been $12. However, we can usually avoid paying large sums of money for venues which really helps to keep the cost down.

[KD5MDK]

Is this the same California division that complained they couldn't hold Youth tournaments because venues are too expensive in California, or was that a different one? (I've honestly forgotten, but D'Asaro Jr brought it up at the July Board Mtn)

[fencerwallet]

Is this the same California division that complained they couldn't hold Youth tournaments because venues are too expensive in California, or was that a different one? (I've honestly forgotten, but D'Asaro Jr brought it up at the July Board Mtn)

The event that is being discussed is a nicely run tournament, no argument. But while it is in the California division, the tournament is outside of Las Vegas, not in Southern California. And if an event is not well attended, a late registrant is looking at spending $110 ($30 reg. fee doubled plus $25 event fee doubled) to fence one event that will likely be mixed.

Moreover, as teacup wrote: "The problem with the RYC's and SYC's is that in order to qualify to fence in the April NAC or SN's Y10 and Y12 fencers must fence in an RYC. So if there isn't a "reasonably priced" event in their area, they must either travel, which is also expensive, or pay high fees."

Last year there were only two (2) sanctioned RYC's in this division. There simply are not alot of options in this division for youth fencers. So, contrary to Teacups' quote, youth fencers in this division must BOTH travel AND pay higher fees, not either/or.

[KD5MDK]

The relevant question wasn't about RYCs, though. (I can see where the confusion comes from.)

4qrtrs was saying Southern California Division tournaments charge $15 an entry. At the Summer Nationals board meeting, a motion was made that would have allowed youth fencers to fence in local tournaments, and it was supported by people who said there wasn't enough local events for youth. Michael D'Asaro specifically said that the cost of venues in his area meant that they could only hold a very few tournaments a year, and they were so ful of senior events there was no room for youth events.

I'm saying if that's a problem they're facing, maybe if they charged more than $15 an entry they could afford to hold more tournaments, with local youth events. Or maybe I'm conflating two different areas.

[4qtrs]

The event that is being discussed is a nicely run tournament, no argument. But while it is in the California division, the tournament is outside of Las Vegas, not in Southern California.

Last year there were only two (2) sanctioned RYC's in this division. There simply are not alot of options in this division for youth fencers. So, contrary to Teacups' quote, youth fencers in this division must BOTH travel AND pay higher fees, not either/or.

Let me clarify, California has a lot of divisions. I can only speak for SoCal. Without going into to much history we held an RYC in LA for two years before the new RYC Coordinators positions were created by the Youth committee.

Once the RYCC was in place, they choose to utilize the Pacific Coast Section youth circuit series (which was already established in San Diego, LA, and Vegas) as the RYC series for the Southern California area. It seemed like a natural fit.

We do have a very large division with over 750 members. We have an unsanctioned youth series that is great for starting fencers and the RYCs for our youth. We also offer Jr/Cdt events and Opens. I am sure that the Veterans would like to see more for them.

It’s tough to make everyone happy and have a weekend off for the handful of volunteers that make these events happen.

[KD5MDK]

Fair enough. It certainly was not clear to me at the time where in California Mr. D'Asaro meant.

[edew]

Here's some issues concerning the RYC fees.

A typical RYC will have to use rented space because of the size. That's overhead that some places don't have to usually pay (such as in the Bay Cup, where almost all events are held at clubs, so the facility is already paid for).

While a $30/20 or $30/25 is reasonable for a well-attended event such as a Y12MF or Y14ME, it may seem excessive for Y10MS (or Y10MxS) where only one or two attend. But, the RYC MUST provide that event because it's a qualifier to national events. On the other hand, saying that the Y10MS should be cheaper because of fewer entrants doesn't wash. First, having separate costs for each event makes for an accounting nightmare (as well as possibly allowing for shenanigans if the host organizer is savvy with numbers). Second, everyone will argue that maybe there's could be less because of greater numbers mean economies of scale, or that they're a small field as well. Third, people will be confused about what they really have to pay if the amount varies depending on the events they compete in.

So for simplicity, make it a fixed amount and let people decide whether they want to attend that event or not. There are other RYCs in other areas and other RYCs in the calendar to attend.