How much do you think?

[fancy for fencing]

I started fencing almost one year ago. Up to now I only plan simple things in my bouts (like where I want to touch my opponent or whether I'll do a fleche) and do many things intuitively. Now I want to get more thinking and strategy into my bouts. But I wonder if there is an ideal mixture of thinking and intuition, because perhaps one day I think too much or only fence in strict strategy patterns, so that I'm not open for unexpected things.
What do you think:

Is it possible to think/plan too much ?

How much do you think/plan consciously? And how much do you do intuitively?

Did the mixture of thinking/strategy and intuition change from your beginnings as a fencer until now?

Thanks.

[Frater_Frag]

I prefer to think before and after a bout, during a bout, its all intuition and automated reflexes (hopefully, the right ones...)!

[Ordway]

I fenced for a number of years basically on intuition alone. It took me reasonably far but then no further.

Now I am working on incorporating strategy much more into my fencing. It's definitely a work in progress (my 50-50 split is perhaps more hopeful than realistic, hehe) but it's helping. I think intuition will always have a place in my fencing, but I'm shooting for it to be a much much smaller place than it has now.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Do a search.

[fancy for fencing]

Sorry, am I blind? Please help me. I would not have opened this thread if i knew that there was one similar. I only read the "How does your approach to Direct Elimination bouts differ from Pools?"-thread, but that was not my question.

[erooMynohtnA]

I don't think it's possible to plan too much. I do, however, think it's very possible to plan under a mistaken premise, thus invalidating the plan and possibly shooting yourself in the foot.

I've always thought about my fencing during a bout. However, I've done it in two different stages.

When I was younger, I would analyze my individual movements. If I were parried, I would think I needed an extra disengage. If I got hit, I would think I should parry faster. If I missed, I would aim somewhere else.

Now I leave about half of that to instinct, but I think about broader strategies as well. If I'm parried, I try an attack with second intention. If I get hit because I didn't parry well, I try to stick to the attack. If I miss, I try to fence in better distance.

I think it's the difference between military tactics and military strategy. Tactics will win a battle; strategy, a war.

[Zasha]

thinking is alright, but don't plan to the point where you are only thinking about your plan and not what is happening right in front of your face.

[GorillaSmile]

I try not to think during the bout (if it is serious). However, this can make you, for me at least, slow in adjusting to any changes your opponent makes.

During club time I mostly do thinking (how's my footwork, where is my point, will they try that again, etc) and usually get touched during this time.

[chefencer]

The three pillars of fencing action: tempo, distance, speed

Fencing is an “open skill” sport. This means that conditions surrounding the athlete and outside the athlete have a relevant value for the execution of the required movements. In other words the fencer cannot just concentrate on the pure expression of the technical move he must execute, that which he has practiced and practiced during his lessons. He must also know how to adapt to the situation and feedback received. In other words he has to work as if in an open circuit state with the external conditions changing unpredictably.
Example: It is no help whatsoever to know how to correctly and rapidly execute a straight touch with perfect technique if one can never overcome the opponent’s parry.

A fencer is expected also to face an opponent who, at least in theory, possesses same or similar skills. He must therefore be capable to react autonomously and without having the benefit of predicting his opponent’s actions. Therefore, to win, a fencer must not only be able to manage in a rational way his own psychophysical skills and the external conditions (environment, type of competition, etc.) but he must also master a series of choices with the ultimate goal to prevail over the opponent by neutralizing the opponent’s determination to be an obstacle in his path toward success.

[jeff]

There is definitely an important place for thinking, outside advance-lunge distance, when you're setting up your strategy. Should I attack? Should I draw an attack? What openings does this person give me? What are they doing I need to watch out for? What worked/didn't work on the last exchange (especially: "why did I get hit?" if you did). On the other hand, as Yogi Berra said, "you can't think and bat at the same time". Same applies in fencing: at the moment you're in action you can't be thinking of your next move - your training has to prepare you to react instantaneously and appropriately to the opportunity or risk in front of you. Think, but not too much, and not at the wrong time!

[RITFencing]

I like to think of it as making a plan and executing it... when I'm waiting for the next touch, or out of distance, or watching an opponent, I like to plan out a strategy. When I'm within distance, it would be far too distracting; I try to use a minimum of concious thought and execute my plan, almost letting my instinct take over. Actually, I'm not sure instinct is the best word. Training might fit better; instinct implies that it was there to begin with.

[KD5MDK]

Are we allowed to answer for other forum members, against their will?

[jeff]

will the result be entertaining?

[fancy for fencing]

What about "I GUESS the answer of that member would be..."?

[purpzeyFCLI]

I like to think of it as making a plan and executing it... when I'm waiting for the next touch, or out of distance, or watching an opponent, I like to plan out a strategy. When I'm within distance, it would be far too distracting; I try to use a minimum of concious thought and execute my plan, almost letting my instinct take over. Actually, I'm not sure instinct is the best word. Training might fit better; instinct implies that it was there to begin with.

^^^He's right. [/thread].

[jrgunn]

... I wonder if there is an ideal mixture of thinking and intuition, because perhaps one day I think too much or only fence in strict strategy patterns, so that I'm not open for unexpected things...

Is it possible to think/plan too much ?

How much do you think/plan consciously? And how much do you do intuitively?

Did the mixture of thinking/strategy and intuition change from your beginnings as a fencer until now?

Thanks.

To answer your first question about "ideal mixtures", it simply doesn't work that way. Everyone's psyche works differently; some folks are the chessmasters of the strip, others are the passionate, agressive, "I'm gonna get you sucka'" type, with most of us falling in between these two extremes.
My planning takes place out of distance, and works in response to what the my opponent is telling me by his/her attacks and parries (i.e: reacting to obvious feints into an inside line with parry 4, but circle 6 against a perceived real one).
Early in a bout, I will choose a specific attack and attempt it, not worrying about losing the point because I'm more interested in seeing what my opponent will do. Each phrase, won or lost, becomes a lesson against that particular fencer.
Each observation leads to more options, i.e: does my opponent open up his low outside line during a phrase against his high inside? Can I cause him to repeat this response? If so, that's at least two good touches waiting for me until he figures out what I'm doing and takes steps to stop me.
The upshot: observe your opponent actions and reactions carefully during a bout and attempt to adapt your fencing accordingly.
My coach calls this "flexible thinking".
I call it difficult, and I need a lot more practice.

[Skunky]

In all my time fencing, i've never planned a whole lot. Fencing sabre, the most planning i do is thinking what i will do immediately off the line for a series of touches. I'll never plan more than 2 touches ahead of the current one but more often then not, i've only thought about what i'm going to do that touch when the director says fence. when attacking, most of my decisions on whether to feint, attack straight, parry, or whatever come from the feel my opponent is giving me (body position, blade position, etc.). The same goes for when i am defending.

[seven6ty]

At key times, I'll usually think up some kind of a strategy to use, and keep it in the back of my head. If you think about it too much, I find you usually tend to telegraph this to your opponent by trying to jump into that situation before the timing is really right for it. I think the most practical thing to do, is to simply outline what has worked for you so far in the bout, and what hasn't. Don't waste your time on things that haven't worked for you so far, completely run those things out of your head. Spend time setting up and testing for the things which have worked for you, and when it comes down to a key point of the bout, like la belle, or when I'm down by a number of points, then that's when you start to think about those things and prepare yourself to use them.

But yeah, I still say I go on intuition and such about 60-75 percent of the time, then spend only about a quarter of my time/efforts on those things I consciously think about.

[telkanuru]

Yay bell curve!

[Inquartata]

Yes, I too am a fan of Catherine Bell's curves.