Body cord technology

[JMcC]

I'm wondering what the history is behind the two current body cord configurations of the attachments at the weapon end: two prong and bayonet.

Both have their advocates, but few seem to be entirely happy with either.

I assume the prong system is older, and the bayonet was an attempt to solve problems with it.

When was the bayonet introduced? Other than meeting the same physical and electrical requirements set down in the rules, did it also need to receive the official approval of any governing bodies before it was legal in competition; the way FIE uniform manufacturers do?

If so, what was the path for final approval?

[AndrewH]

As I understand it...

Originally the 2 prong body cords didn't have clips on the cord itself, the retaining clip was part of the guard socket. These clips would break, get lost, etc, and it was a pain in the ass. The bayonet was an attempt to make a "self locking" body cord that didn't need an external clip.

Of course the bayonet cords, containing a spring under pressure, are rather prone to exploding, moreso in sabre than in foil. Now that 2 prongs are manufactured standard with a built in clip, I would say the majority of sabre fencers (not too sure about foil) prefer that type.

[DHCJr]

I'm wondering what the history is behind the two current body cord configurations of the attachments at the weapon end: two prong and bayonet.

Both have their advocates, but few seem to be entirely happy with either.

I assume the prong system is older, and the bayonet was an attempt to solve problems with it.

When was the bayonet introduced? Other than meeting the same physical and electrical requirements set down in the rules, did it also need to receive the official approval of any governing bodies before it was legal in competition; the way FIE uniform manufacturers do?

If so, what was the path for final approval?

You assumed wrong. The opposite is true as far as timing. The Carmamarri bayonet was the first Foil connector and was supplied at the '56 Olympics to all fencers. Leon Paul bayonet version came out a few years later. The 2 prong came out in the early '60s. Some of the other bayonet systems like the Toykyo Sport and Negrini also came out in the '60s. The 2-prong was not to make improvements, but because it is a lot easier and cheaper to make. They also changed the rules. Until the early '60s connectors wires had to be soldered on. The bayonets were easier to solder. If you ever tried soldering a Epee cord with solder connections, you will understand. The Carmimarri is the most solid and reliable, but because of the work involved, it is also more expensive. Also when it does go bad (nothing last forever) it takes a lot more work to fix. There is no approval process. Even Epee has versions besides the standard 3 prong.

If you have a non-standard cord and the Armorer doesn't really understand the rules, they may fail it because they don't know how to test it.

[HDG]

DHC,
Do you have a picture of a Tokyo Sport? I've seen all the others, but wonder what this one looks like.

[DHCJr]

I only have a camera that uses film. I think I can describe it well enough. It appears to be a small version of the Carmimarri with some differences.

The guard connector - Think of a flashlight with a bulb that doesn't screw in, but instead is pushed in with a quarter turn to the right. The steel is a little stronger than that so it doesn't bend out of shape to easily.

The body cord connector - looks similar to the bulb with 2 prongs to the side to lock in place and a screw at the bottom to hold it together.

[KD5MDK]

It's also known as a Toyota tail light socket.

[remise]

Soldering epee cords IS difficult. I soldered several at our club because of one fencer we nicknamed "Yankovitch". He'd yank his cords out by the wire, and not by the plug. The soldering, while a pain to do, clearly DID offset the frequency of broken cords.

[telkanuru]

And you didn't say "no toys for you until you learn better?"

[Hollywood Troy]

Anyone know why Epee is universally three pin and the other two weapons are two different styles and neither is three pin?

[lochinvar]

The difference is in the way in which touches are registered.

In epee, opening a circuit causes the light.
The first two pins are the circuit, which go through the tip. The third pin (ground) is attached to the weapon. When the tip is depressed, it breaks the first circuit, thereby lighting the light for a touch. However, if it makes contact with the weapon, the grounding pin bypasses the tip and keeps the circuit closed even if the tip is depressed.

In foil, closing one circuit causes the valid light, while opening a second circuit causes the off-target light.
The first two pins, like epee, are the circuit which lights the off-target if its broken (circuit 1)--unless the circuit from the tip of the weapon to the lame is closed (circuit 2).
The box has to distinguish between the two conditions: broken circuit 1 without closed circuit 2=off target, while broken circuit 1 + closed circuit 2 = good hit.

Saber is much simpler: close the circuit, get the light. Everything else is irrelevant, since there is no off-target in saber.

Foil/saber cords are also 3 pin at the end that connects to the reel; the difference is that the 3rd wire runs through the cord to the weapon in epee while it connects to the lame in saber and foil.

[DHCJr]

Anyone know why Epee is universally three pin and the other two weapons are two different styles and neither is three pin?

First Epee is not universal and there are a lot more than 2 styles. I carry with me about a half-dozen styles of Foil/Sabre connectors for testing.

The majority of Epee is the same because of cost. Volume means lower cost per unit. You have both ends of the floor cords and the back end of all body cords the same, it saves you money and inventory space to make the front end of the Epee body cord the same as the back.

As I stated above the original Foil cord was made by Camamarri. The problem is it is more expensive to make. The original rules had the body cord self-testing. If you take the Camamarri part way out the connector in the weapon shorts out causing the white light to go out showing that the weapon is bad and from the body cord back is good.

The other cords are designed to be easier to manufacture, thus less expensive. Each came up with their own design.

[downunder]

The difference is in the way in which touches are registered.

In epee, opening a circuit causes the light.
The first two pins are the circuit, which go through the tip. The third pin (ground) is attached to the weapon. When the tip is depressed, it breaks the first circuit, thereby lighting the light for a touch. However, if it makes contact with the weapon, the grounding pin bypasses the tip and keeps the circuit closed even if the tip is depressed.

I really think you don't understand this at all. There is no closed circuit in an epee unless the tip is depressed. There would be far too much room for cheating if this was the case.

3 wires, two of which go up the blade, and contact via the contact spring causes a light. The other wire is grounded to the guard.

[Purple Fencer]

The difference is in the way in which touches are registered.

In epee, opening a circuit causes the light.
The first two pins are the circuit, which go through the tip. The third pin (ground) is attached to the weapon. When the tip is depressed, it breaks the first circuit, thereby lighting the light for a touch. However, if it makes contact with the weapon, the grounding pin bypasses the tip and keeps the circuit closed even if the tip is depressed.

In foil, closing one circuit causes the valid light, while opening a second circuit causes the off-target light.
The first two pins, like epee, are the circuit which lights the off-target if its broken (circuit 1)--unless the circuit from the tip of the weapon to the lame is closed (circuit 2).
The box has to distinguish between the two conditions: broken circuit 1 without closed circuit 2=off target, while broken circuit 1 + closed circuit 2 = good hit.

Saber is much simpler: close the circuit, get the light. Everything else is irrelevant, since there is no off-target in saber.

Foil/saber cords are also 3 pin at the end that connects to the reel; the difference is that the 3rd wire runs through the cord to the weapon in epee while it connects to the lame in saber and foil.

Uhhh...negative. Epee is a normally open circuit...pusign the tip down CLOSES it and fires the light.

FOIL is the normallhy closed onje...and teh box is looking for a opening or break in the circuit....which is why a depressed tip., broken wire, or loose barrel/grip all cause the off target light to fire...the box doesn;t know or care where the break is...

[fencerbill]

You have it bass-ackwards.

Epee is normally open. The light goes on when the circuit is closed (unless in contact with your opponent's bell or the grounded strip at the time.

Foil is normally closed. When the main circuit is interrupted a light goes on. If you are in contact with your opponents Lame, you get a colored light. If not, a white light. This method, developed decades after the basic Epee circuit is better because if a wire opens, it tells you by a white light. Your Epee wires could break or become intermittent and you only find out when the touch you should have gotten doesn't happen.

Sabre gives a colored light when your blade (through the C pin, the lonely one further from the center pin) contacts your opponent's Lame. The scoring machine is reassured that the C contact wire isn't broken because it is shorted to the B contact at the weapon.

If either the C line or the B line breaks you get a white light. IT IS IMPORTANT which breaks. If it is the B line, who cares, your touches will still register. If it is the C line, your touches won't register.

Whoops, another sermon.

The difference is in the way in which touches are registered.

In epee, opening a circuit causes the light.
The first two pins are the circuit, which go through the tip. The third pin (ground) is attached to the weapon. When the tip is depressed, it breaks the first circuit, thereby lighting the light for a touch. However, if it makes contact with the weapon, the grounding pin bypasses the tip and keeps the circuit closed even if the tip is depressed.

In foil, closing one circuit causes the valid light, while opening a second circuit causes the off-target light.
The first two pins, like epee, are the circuit which lights the off-target if its broken (circuit 1)--unless the circuit from the tip of the weapon to the lame is closed (circuit 2).
The box has to distinguish between the two conditions: broken circuit 1 without closed circuit 2=off target, while broken circuit 1 + closed circuit 2 = good hit.

Saber is much simpler: close the circuit, get the light. Everything else is irrelevant, since there is no off-target in saber.

Foil/saber cords are also 3 pin at the end that connects to the reel; the difference is that the 3rd wire runs through the cord to the weapon in epee while it connects to the lame in saber and foil.

[lochinvar]

Thanks, guys, for pointing out my egregious blunder.
I actually knew that. Don't know what I was thinking... Too many late hours, not enough caffeine.

What they said.