The Fleche and the Side of strip...

[erik_blank]

OK, here is an attempt to cure some ignorance on my part that has been hanging around for some 3+ years now...

From Rule t.28
"[FONT=Times New Roman]A competitor who crosses one of the lateral boundaries of the strip with one or both feet – e.g. when making a fleche – to avoid being touched will be penalized as specified in Articles t.114, t.116, t.120."

OK, that's the reference in the Rules as they stand.. now how do we apply it? I have always been told that when doing a fleche that you are SUPPOSED to run towards the sid of the strip so as to avoid running into your opponent. In fact I have been told that it is my OBLIGATION to avoid hitting him/her when performing a Fleche. Am I simply mis reading the above to say that I have to stay on the strip until I pass shoulders ( when the fencing action is supposed to be halted barring any immediate repost by my opponent)? As a director am I to penalize any infraction since by moving off the side of the strip actio is halted and thus the act could be interpreted as an attempt to avoid a touch?

Is this a VERY old thread that has been in the rules for ever, or have things changed in the last 5-7 years?

[keith]

OK, that's the reference in the Rules as they stand.. now how do we apply it? I have always been told that when doing a fleche that you are SUPPOSED to run towards the sid of the strip so as to avoid running into your opponent. In fact I have been told that it is my OBLIGATION to avoid hitting him/her when performing a Fleche. Am I simply mis reading the above to say that I have to stay on the strip until I pass shoulders ( when the fencing action is supposed to be halted barring any immediate repost by my opponent)? As a director am I to penalize any infraction since by moving off the side of the strip actio is halted and thus the act could be interpreted as an attempt to avoid a touch?

Is this a VERY old thread that has been in the rules for ever, or have things changed in the last 5-7 years?

Is this an old rule yes.

Should you fleche towards the side of the strip?

No you should fleche at the thing you want to hit which is generally your opponent, but it may sometimes be the ref. Only consideration is not running into your opponent. Avoiding physical contact after fleching directly at your opponent is not that hard.

Leaving the piste to avoid the touch while fleching.

So; if you fleche at your opponent and they parry as they retreat and you (instead of continuing your action towards your opponent) leap off the side of the piste to end the phrase before they can begin to deliver the riposte then you have committed the offense.

[Goldgar]

OK, here is an attempt to cure some ignorance on my part that has been hanging around for some 3+ years now...

From Rule t.28
"A competitor who crosses one of the lateral boundaries of the strip with one or both feet – e.g. when making a fleche – to avoid being touched will be penalized as specified in Articles t.114, t.116, t.120."

OK, that's the reference in the Rules as they stand.. now how do we apply it? I have always been told that when doing a fleche that you are SUPPOSED to run towards the sid of the strip so as to avoid running into your opponent. In fact I have been told that it is my OBLIGATION to avoid hitting him/her when performing a Fleche. Am I simply mis reading the above to say that I have to stay on the strip until I pass shoulders ( when the fencing action is supposed to be halted barring any immediate repost by my opponent)? As a director am I to penalize any infraction since by moving off the side of the strip actio is halted and thus the act could be interpreted as an attempt to avoid a touch?

Is this a VERY old thread that has been in the rules for ever, or have things changed in the last 5-7 years?

I've never heard this discussed specifically, so I can only offer my opinion.

You are supposed to run past the opponent, and if you happen to go off the size of the strip in doing so, because the opponent is too close to the side of the strip, I don't think any referee is going to card you for doing to avoid a touch. On the other hand if you fleche more sideways than forward, unnecessarily, with the evident intention of avoiding your opponent's riposte or counterattack by leaving the strip, then the referee is justified in carding you.

[jaketheranger]

There's a crafty veteran epee fencer out there who famously will take a parry and, if he knows he's in trouble once he releases, he'll step off the strip in what he terms "an old man's fleche".

You know who you are!!!!!!!!!!!

[downunder]

OK, here is an attempt to cure some ignorance on my part that has been hanging around for some 3+ years now...

From Rule t.28
"[FONT=Times New Roman]A competitor who crosses one of the lateral boundaries of the strip with one or both feet – e.g. when making a fleche – to avoid being touched will be penalized as specified in Articles t.114, t.116, t.120."

OK, that's the reference in the Rules as they stand.. now how do we apply it? I have always been told that when doing a fleche that you are SUPPOSED to run towards the sid of the strip so as to avoid running into your opponent. In fact I have been told that it is my OBLIGATION to avoid hitting him/her when performing a Fleche. Am I simply mis reading the above to say that I have to stay on the strip until I pass shoulders ( when the fencing action is supposed to be halted barring any immediate repost by my opponent)? As a director am I to penalize any infraction since by moving off the side of the strip actio is halted and thus the act could be interpreted as an attempt to avoid a touch?

Is this a VERY old thread that has been in the rules for ever, or have things changed in the last 5-7 years?

I was away on holidays when this came up, but i'll answer anyways.

If you fence foil (or sabre but obviously no fleche in sabre yadda yadda yadda) then you must not come into contact with your opponent at any stage. This will result in a group 1 penalty, initially a yellow card for corps a corps. Note that systematic, even to the point of being intentional (not to avoid the touch but by fleching constantly along that line), corps a corps by fleche in epee is specifically allowed in the rules and is not punished unless it jostles the opponent, is used to avoid a touch, or is deliberately violent, dangerous or brutal.

Back on topic, to be carded for this it really does have to be deliberate and blatent. I've never seen it carded before, and i've never seen a situation where a card is warrented. That doesn't mean it doesn't happen, but it is very unlikely in a usual fencing phrase. Fleching off the piste whilst trying to avoid your opponent during the attack, if you miss, will only incur the 1 metre penalty not the group 1 penalty.

[RITFencing]

There's a crafty veteran epee fencer out there who famously will take a parry and, if he knows he's in trouble once he releases, he'll step off the strip in what he terms "an old man's fleche".

You know who you are!!!!!!!!!!!

Technically cardable... leaving the side of the strip to avoid a touch is a group 1 offense.

[downunder]

Technically cardable... leaving the side of the strip to avoid a touch is a group 1 offense.

Really?

You know that that has been referenced or implied in every single post of this thread.

[erooMynohtnA]

Really?

You know that that has been referenced or implied in every single post of this thread.

Wrong

[downunder]

Wrong

well not anymore

[erik_blank]

Fleching off the piste whilst trying to avoid your opponent during the attack, if you miss, will only incur the 1 metre penalty not the group 1 penalty.

Interesting. I have to say that I cannot remember ever being given the 1 meter penalty for missing a fleche attack and then running off the strip.

Just to throw more sand into the gears, if I am fleching and then running off the side of the strip after a failed attack, at some point, the shoulders will cross and a halt will be called for that. sooo.... halt for shoulders crossing? halt for crossing the lateral boundry? Halt for the sudden appearance of fuzzy-headed gnomes weilding flamagles? The World wants to know!

(OK, it's late and I'm starting to drift off topic...)

[Goldgar]

Interesting. I have to say that I cannot remember ever being given the 1 meter penalty for missing a fleche attack and then running off the strip.

Just to throw more sand into the gears, if I am fleching and then running off the side of the strip after a failed attack, at some point, the shoulders will cross and a halt will be called for that. sooo.... halt for shoulders crossing? halt for crossing the lateral boundry? Halt for the sudden appearance of fuzzy-headed gnomes weilding flamagles? The World wants to know!

(OK, it's late and I'm starting to drift off topic...)

Get a grip, Erik!

If you fleche and leave the strip after passing your opponent, you'll get no distance penalty. If you fleche and leave the strip before passing your opponent, your opponent will gain a meter of ground. If you fleche and run off the strip in a way that looks to the referee like a deliberate attempt to avoid a touch, rather than just avoid running into your opponent, your opponent will gain a meter of ground *and* you will get a yellow card (if it's a first offense).

[erik_blank]

Get a grip, Erik!

*Taking a firm hold of his own arm* "OK, now what?"

If you fleche and leave the strip after passing your opponent, you'll get no distance penalty. If you fleche and leave the strip before passing your opponent, your opponent will gain a meter of ground. If you fleche and run off the strip in a way that looks to the referee like a deliberate attempt to avoid a touch, rather than just avoid running into your opponent, your opponent will gain a meter of ground *and* you will get a yellow card (if it's a first offense)

I guess that I have just never thought about the whole leaving the strip durring a fleche before, always assuming that part of the whole action was to leave the strip to the side of your opponent so as to avoid running into him/her. After reading the rule, things suddenly became less clear, so I turned to the wealth of knowledge that is the fencing.net commuinity!

Remember: "The only stupid question is the one asked by somebody else !"

[Allen Evans]

Wouldn't your coach have been a good place to start?

[Sciurus-Rex]

Wouldn't your coach have been a good place to start?

Hey, it's a community. He can start asking wherever he wants.

Besides, it's presumptous of you to assume his 'coach' (whoever it is) is a legitimate authority, or that he's available for discussion, or that he has decent communications skills.

[Allen Evans]

Besides, it's presumptous of you to assume his 'coach' (whoever it is) is a legitimate authority, or that he's available for discussion, or that he has decent communications skills.

True, my bad.

[erik_blank]

Hey, it's a community. He can start asking wherever he wants.

Thanks, I was starting to feel a bit under the gun here... Especially when I was trying to lighten the mood a bit earlier.

Besides, it's presumptous of you to assume his 'coach' (whoever it is) is a legitimate authority, or that he's available for discussion, or that he has decent communications skills.

Worse yet, if the person starting this whole mess is supposed to be a coach himself!
This whole thing started by allowing a bit of self doubt to creep into the brain. I have always called halt for the passing of the shoulders, not realy paying attention to the placement of the feet prior to that passing. When I re-read the rule the other day, I felt confused and concerned that for the past 8+ years I had been calling the wrong thing.
As someone once said, "My minds made up, don't confuse me with the facts!"

[KD5MDK]

An epee referee should always be aware of where the feet are.

[Allen Evans]

When I re-read the rule the other day, I felt confused and concerned that for the past 8+ years I had been calling the wrong thing.
As someone once said, "My minds made up, don't confuse me with the facts!"

Wait....8+ years? Suddenly I'm less sympathetic. Certainly if you had been calling an epee action incorrectly for 8+ years, someone would have jumped on you by now and straightened this out.

[Fencergrl]

Yes, Allen, but he's been concerned for 3....

OK, here is an attempt to cure some ignorance on my part that has been hanging around for some 3+ years now...

What with his country's 500th anniversary to plan, his wedding to arrange, his wife to murder and Guilder to frame for it; he's been swamped....

Oh wait a minute, that was Prince Humperdinck, from the Princess Bride!

Right... Erik has kids or something and been spending every spare moment toiling over the rule book in the hopes of becoming a real director, thus making his wife and kids proud.... never mind, I always get those two confused.

[erik_blank]

An epee referee should always be aware of where the feet are.

yes, epee ref should and I do watch feet. I also have been yelled at for telling people that they should not be crossing the side of the strip. Even got into an argument that it was NOT a penality to do so with only one foot as recently as this spring. Had a fencer on the strip telling me he had never heard of the rule, and three other fencers in the pool saying the same thing. Worse yet, I did not have a copy of the rule bok handy (it was NOT a USFA sanctioned event).
As for the rules discrepancy, My memory was that the rule of leaving the strip with one foot giving a penality didn't start until about 3 years ago, but that I have been informally refing off and on for more than 8+ years.
(digging hole deeper here *sigh*)

FencerGirl:
Have you by chance six fingers on your right hand?