Starting on-guard position??

[Chafunkta]

I've been reading the rulebook and the Handbook for Referees (http://fencingofficials.org/Info/Han...tml#_Toc976821) to clarify some things, but I think I need a little bit of help (or a lot of deconstructive banter) from the forum.

When placed at the line, or at the end of a halt, both fencers are to be in the on guard position and should be completely motionless before the command "fence" is given, right? Well I've always heard/thought that both fencers are to be on guard with their weapon arms in six, and with no point in line. Is this true or can a fencer do anything they want with their weapon arm as long as it's not a PIL?

[keropie]

From the link you provided:

The question of a "correct" on guard position is no longer open to interpretation. Referees are to have the fencers take the position indicated by the drawings in the Rules Book that show the targets for each weapon. Also remember - "at foil and sabre no fencer may come on guard with his point in line."

(Bolding mine)

Now, the pictures suck. They would, in theory, require us all to have a rear hand up in the infamous 'scoripon' pose. But generally, yes, you have to be on guard in 6 for foil/epee, in 3 for saber, and for saber and foil you must not be 'in line.'

Edit: Additionally, you can/should(?) enforce something like a correct on guard with the feet/knees/etc., and should most likely prevent them from leaning forward significantly, hoping to get a jump on the command fence. If fencers 'jump the gun' for me, I will instruct them not to do so. If they do it again, I'll give them a yellow card. If they ask what the card is for, it's for disobeying the official (hence the instuction not to do it again )

[KD5MDK]

However, do not be quite as literal as the picture. For example, don't let their blades cross like it has there.

[Chafunkta]

Should I place them on guard like the epee pic? (Auto-touch for right after every halt.)

Oh, and I'd like to see the referee that critiques both fencers guards after every touch. "Feet at right angles! Knee over your front foot!! Don't lean forward!!"

So the consensus (after 2 responses) is that they should be on guard in six, and not with their weapons pointed at the ground.

[arc]

From the link you provided:

If they do it again, I'll give them a yellow card. If they ask what the card is for, it's for disobeying the official (hence the instuction not to do it again )

Another appropriate one would be delay of bout: "Any fencer who attempts improperly to cause or to prolong interruptions to the bout ..."

[keropie]

Yes, but for that card you have to know or assert that they started early with intent to improperly delay or prolong the bout My way, there's no argument to be made

[Goldgar]

It's a dumb rule, IMO -- why the heck can't I come on guard in 8 if I want? Or 4? <sigh> But it's the current rule (or rule interpretation), and as a referee I have to enforce it.

[rcmatthews]

Because coming on guard in anything other than an en garde position could confer an advantage. You can't just move around and position yourself however you want before the action starts.

[Inquartata]

If you assume any guard position, you are "en garde".

I used to start in a guard of 5, years ago. I had a ref question it only once. Eventually I stopped doing it because it DIDN'T provide any advantage.

[Goldgar]

Because coming on guard in anything other than an en garde position could confer an advantage. You can't just move around and position yourself however you want before the action starts.

The whole point of an "en garde" position is to have a positional advantage. Traditionally, most foilists have believed guard 6 confers the best advantage; that's why it's the standard. But if I happen to like some other guard position, that ought to be up to me.

It isn't, according to this ruling, and I'm well aware of that. But I doubt it has anything to do with conferring an advantage. My guess is that the intention is to force the fencers to come en garde in a defensive position, not an attacking one, and picking this one specific position saves a lot of argument over whether some fencer's stance is or is not a guard position rather than an attack position.

[Peach]

All you have to do to keep the fencers from jumping the gun is to vary the tempo of your "Ready? Fence!" command. If you delay, it's so much fun to watch fencers totter, try to maintain their balance, and fall over, and much more educational to them than a card. I forget which senior referee told me to do that--think it was Charlie Washburn.

[tbryan]

It's a dumb rule, IMO -- why the heck can't I come on guard in 8 if I want? Or 4? <sigh> But it's the current rule (or rule interpretation), and as a referee I have to enforce it.

I've never really talked to anyone about it. I do enforce it. Here are a few advantages from using this standard (from my perspective).

• I generally find it easier to visually inspect for things like the curve of the blade and whether the body cable is still attached if the fencers are on guard in a high line.
• I say "On guard." Once the fencers come "on guard", they are supposed to remain motionless as I verify that they are ready. In absence of a reply, I give the command "Fence." Varying the rhythm, I sometimes say "Ready? Fence." with very little pause in between. Now, there's one problem there. How do I know that the fencers have actually come "on guard"? Just because they're at the line and somewhat still? This standard makes it clear to everyone when the fencer has come on guard. Referees and fencers don't exchange a lot of words, so standards like this help everyone to communicate clearly.
• As a fencer, I come to the line, about to get on guard. Perhaps I lower a bit into my stance, but before I come on guard, I hold my weapon down to see that the bend looks okay. If the referee permitted any sort of on guard position, he might suddenly say, "Ready? Fence." I wouldn't really be ready at all, and I'd be at a disadvantage. Of course, I really shouldn't approach my guard line until I'm ready to drop into an on guard. But when this standard is applied, the referee is unlikely ever to ask "Ready?" before I'm on guard.

And from the fencers' perspective, is there anything you're going to do "on guard" that you couldn't do as soon as the referee says "fence"? I can't imagine that it would make a difference, like Inq says. From where the referee is standing, on guard in a saber 5 makes it hard for the referee to see anything about your weapon (bent or broken blade, for example). On guard in 3 makes the referee's job much easier, and as soon as he says "Fence," you can switch your guard to 5.

[swordsen]

I have alwasy felt this was a pretty dang foolish "rule". And I have seen refs telling people how to postion their feet. (couldn't have his feet together)If for some bizzarely strange reason I want to come on guard in Prime then I should be able to learn why that is foolish.

I have wondered about that bit "in foil and saber" the point can't be in line. So will a ref allow you be PIL if you are fencing epee? (my guess is no)

[keropie]

There is no advantage conferred by the rules to be 'in line' in epee. So yes, I allow epee fencers to come on guard 'in line'.

[Mr Epee]

Feel free to blame us epeeists for this rule.

I remember when they first started enforcing this internationally... it was partially because in epee there's no particular advantage to being off the line quickly, so rather than assuming a recognizable fencing position a few of the guys just stood at the line looking tall and goofy...

It was getting a little silly and didn't quite look right... so you're welcome.

I think there's a tape floating around out there with a referee repeatedly instructing Fabrice Jeannet (FRA) to assume the classic "scorpion" position. In addition to being a world class epeeist, Jeannet is a world class dirty look giver and eyeroller... gawd that was hillarious.

[annacattiva]

All you have to do to keep the fencers from jumping the gun is to vary the tempo of your "Ready? Fence!" command. If you delay, it's so much fun to watch fencers totter, try to maintain their balance, and fall over, and much more educational to them than a card. I forget which senior referee told me to do that--think it was Charlie Washburn.

I love doing that. There's this wonderful moment after "ready" in which you can watch the slow tilt become more and more pronounced and off-balance. Most fencers that I let do that (and then sort of laugh and say "oops" at afterwards, as they're getting back on the line and on guard) don't do it again.

The only problem I ever had with the on guard/not on guard with someone was with an opponent here in England who took AGES to get on guard. Sort of minutely adjusting her feet back and forth and back and forth before the "fence". Except that one of the refs (I had to fence her in foil and epee- this was for a university match) didn't notice that she wasn't on guard and kept calling "fence" early so that she already had (a tiny amount of) momentum. I pointed it out and asked him if he could wait until she was actually standing still.

Anna

[Peach]

I think there's a tape floating around out there with a referee repeatedly instructing Fabrice Jeannet (FRA) to assume the classic "scorpion" position. In addition to being a world class epeeist, Jeannet is a world class dirty look giver and eyeroller... gawd that was hillarious.

Why is it that the epeeists in general are world-class at dirty looks and eye-rolls? I swear the most entertaining episodes (nationally) between ref and fencer I've ever watched have been in epee bouts.

[rcmatthews]

The whole point of an "en garde" position is to have a positional advantage. Traditionally, most foilists have believed guard 6 confers the best advantage; that's why it's the standard. But if I happen to like some other guard position, that ought to be up to me.

It isn't, according to this ruling, and I'm well aware of that. But I doubt it has anything to do with conferring an advantage. My guess is that the intention is to force the fencers to come en garde in a defensive position, not an attacking one, and picking this one specific position saves a lot of argument over whether some fencer's stance is or is not a guard position rather than an attack position.

What if I choose to come en garde with my weapon extended at my opponent? Not a line, but an attacking extension. Or, I could start with my blade low so I am already in position for a low line attack. Think of it like when a football team lines up before the play, or basketball players before a free throw. A proper stance ensures beginning on equal footing.

[Goldgar]

Why is it that the epeeists in general are world-class at dirty looks and eye-rolls? I swear the most entertaining episodes (nationally) between ref and fencer I've ever watched have been in epee bouts.

Whereas you specialize in that over-the-eyeglasses, teacherly, "Come now, don't be silly" look.

[Mr Epee]

Why is it that the epeeists in general are world-class at dirty looks and eye-rolls? I swear the most entertaining episodes (nationally) between ref and fencer I've ever watched have been in epee bouts.

A. Epeeists view the referee as a servant of our game. We have never felt it appropriate to delegate god-like powers to our servants (see: foil/saber). We worship the box.

B. Epeeists are usually already looking down at the referee

C. We practice it.