How do you influence the referee on your strip?

[Mauler]

As a fencer, or as a coach, what are your "tricks of the trade" that tips the refereeing in your favor, time after time?

Referees come in all shapes, sizes, abilities, conditions, etc. You never know who you're gonna get. And even the ones you do know, you never know when his/her one really bad day will happen right on your strip. Sometimes your ref just needs that little push (or even kick in the butt) to get their act together, and even have a major breakthrough in the level of their knowledge/performance as a result of the interaction with you.

Some referees thrive when you increase the pressure on them. Some perform better under relaxed conditions. Do you have any pre-bout tricks that "nudge" the referees toward their ideal "zone?"

There's a great variety in how the referees perceive the same physical motions. Every ref has his/her own level of threshold on the "windows" of interpreting same actions and infractions. Do you have tricks that enhance the probability of the referee seeing the actions in your favor, rather than passively hoping the ref sees it?

What's your trick on assessing what sort of ref you have right then, right there on your strip, beyond past experiences?

Do you have a successful "system" for yourself or your fencers on how to interact with the referees for optimal short-term/long-term benefit? Have you actually "tweaked" the techniques in your fencing system with an intent to enhance better visiblity/recognizability by the typical referees?

Do you stop referees out in the streets, airports, coffee shops, bars, etc and engage in passionate discussions on the rules? Do you mass-email them, or post on internet boards in the hopes of enlightening them to see things your way? Does your team organize a cheering squad or send flowers/cards to exceptionally well-performing referees? Does your team have a knee-capping squad for underperforming ones?

Please share and discuss.... or vent.

[Katman]

The vast majority of my competitions have been local. I usually know the refs and, especially in the last two years or so, have often reffed them more than they ref me. When this is the case, I can usually ask them pointed questions about a call I think they blew. I'll only do this maybe once or twice, because if I can't convince him with my fencing or my reputation (abiet a small, local, crappy one) then it won't happen.

If it's someone I don't know then the best I can do is to simply show up to strip with all of my ducks in a row and stay that way until the pool/DE's over. I question them when I think they've blown it but only once or twice, because if they don't change then I'm messing up or there's no hope. It can be frustrating but hey.

Otherwise the usual: strolling back to my en guarde line confidently, questioning the ref's judgement politely, shouting when I know I scored, the usual tricks. If they don't work it's because hey, who am I to this guy? Short preparing foilist nobody.

Edit: It occured to me that these are not conscious tricks. I've usually convinced myself of an action before I have to convince the ref of it. If I buy their reasoning then that's something to ask the coach about later and change.

[KD5MDK]

One thing I've noticed is fencers who I thought had not been touched, etc sometimes go right ahead and act as if they were touched. (ie, walk back to their on guard line in a one light toe touch situation, etc). Makes it a bit easier for me.

[Joe biebel]

There was a time in my fencing when winning was all-important. I would "squeeze" refs any way I could to "help" them see things my way. These days, I try, yes I said try (cuz we all know there is passion in this game) to let my blade do the talking. I'm not always successful in controlling myself, and I'll admit I feel badly when my opponant shows no such control and the ref is noticably influenced. I think I hold my words, postures, etc., pretty well even when the ref is occassionally a weak minded fool.

I usually don't speak to the refs except to thank them for refereeing. There are a few refs that I have known "forever" and are capable of discussing things that happened in a dispassionate and open manner. Sometimes they learn, sometimes I learn from it. Many referees are not going to listen to anything bad a losing competitor or their coach has to say, so why bother. I will usually say thank you to the ref and tell him/her "good job", but only when I lose. They won't believe your voracity if you tell them they did a great job when you win, nor will they believe you if you tell them they did a bad job if you lose.

I am still a strong enough competitor to "get past" the poor refs, the ones that are easily swayed by words, postures, Jedi mind tricks, etc., until the "tough" matches, where the refs are usually much better. I like to know that whatever the result, I earned it with my weapon, not my mouth.

[aldopre]

Hi there, I think that trying to influence the director as a strategic or tactical means is the wrong approach to the problem.
Much energy is used in trying to accomplish this disguise.
A better approach would be to observe the actions the director can or can not see and or understand.

Getting in a mental bout with the director only detracts from our fencing bout.
So get on with your best fencing.

Aldo Precciozzi

[fencerbill]

Something that I think has worked for me a couple of times.

Early in a bout, when I know a touch should be called on me, I will acknowledge before the referee makes his call. (You don't ever want to wait to acknowledge a touch after he makes the call.)

Then later when I get down on my knees in prayer (well not quite that far) I think I sometimes get a little benefit of the doubt. As if the referee thinks "he acknowledged when it was close, if he hasn't acknowledged this time, maybe it should be his."

Something else that I have gotten away with at times. I usually get back on guard pretty quickly. But when it gets down to the last touch or two or if I hope to counteract some momentum my opponent has been building I take a little stroll to my warning line and then back to the on guard line. I can't remember a referee hassling me about it, I don't overdo it. Even if it doesn't bother my opponent, it lets me compose myself a little.

[eac]

Foil.
Two things:

1) yelling, of course, and
2) when the ref seems to be pondering, I make a gesture indicating how I think the action went. For instance, I'll parry and riposte in the air if I think I riposted, or a one-two if it was my attack. Suggestion is a powerful tool.

[downunder]

Originally Posted by eac

2) when the ref seems to be pondering, I make a gesture indicating how I think the action went. For instance, I'll parry and riposte in the air if I think I riposted, or a one-two if it was my attack. Suggestion is a powerful tool.

You have got to be kidding...

I'd tell you to stop, and if you did it again i'd card you.

[sabreur]

I try to fence cleanly. If you make it easy for the ref to see what you are doing, he's more likely to give you credit for it in a two light situation, especially if the other guy is a flailer.

I also check to see how a ref calls a few critical actions:

1. Tempo attack (near simultaneous situation). Does he give priority in tight situations, or does he just call simultaneous?

2. Parry-riposte with two lights--does he call attack-parry-riposte-remise, or attack-mal pare?

3. Attack with a cut after opponent searches for the line. Can he see this action (most refs can't)? If not, either attack with the point, or do something else.

4. This is a tough one--what is his timing for an attack in prep? If one fencer has right of way and is pressing, and the other fencer counter-attacks/attacks in prep, and it is a two-lighter, almost all directors will give the touch to the fencer who was pressing, even if they hesitated a twitch. If I try an attack in prep against a hesitation, and don't get the call, then I know not to do it again.

I sometimes make a slight motion with my blade to indicate what I thought happened, or point at my forte if the other guy beat low, but I try not to--you're not supposed to do it, and I don't like it when fencers do it to me when I'm reffing.

I will ask for the ref to repeat the call if I'm not sure what happened, and to explain as much as they are willing to--that helps me get into their heads, and also helps them understand what I'm trying to do sometimes.

And in general, I try to be polite, and let them do their work.

MR

[sabreur]

Originally Posted by downunder

You have got to be kidding...

I'd tell you to stop, and if you did it again i'd card you.

You are such a pompous ass.

It isn't a good thing to do, but good (world class) fencers do it all the time. I've yet to see anyone threaten to card a good fencer for showing what he thought the action was.

[downunder]

Originally Posted by sabreur

You are such a pompous ass.

It isn't a good thing to do, but good (world class) fencers do it all the time. I've yet to see anyone threaten to card a good fencer for showing what he thought the action was.

True, but only because it winds up people like you.

I have seen fencers complain and signal after the action, but not whilst the referee is phrasing it.

[Inquartata]

People, people! You are giving away your secret methods of influencing referees to---a referee! Do you think he asked from altruistic motives? You are going to help him make your methods stop working for you!

[D'Art]

I find getting one-lighters helps me get the point.....

[CheekyCanuck]

I guess I don't really have any tricks, but I do question the director. I have yet to see a director change his/her mind on a current ruling, so I don't try to change their mind, but I do say how I saw it and ask how that relates to the rules. I try to treat the director as someone who can help interpret the rules.
If they're making bad calls, this can sometimes help to refresh their memory on the rules and stop future bad calls.
If the director is remembering the rules wrong, at least you can understand how they're going to call future calls and adjust your fencing to their interpretation.

[Joe biebel]

Originally Posted by downunder

You have got to be kidding...

I'd tell you to stop, and if you did it again i'd card you.

Sometimes "downunder" seems a little harsh, but this is something I totally agree with. Any fencer (good or otherwise) that tries to put pressure on me to see things their way will be presured right back in the form of a card. It is a cardable offense to speak to the referee before they make their decision.

(The fencer, whether on or off the strip, must keep his mask on until
the Referee calls halt. He may under no circumstances address the Referee until the Referee has made his decision (cf. t.114, t.116, t.120).

Whether it's words or sign language it is clearly against the rules and not carding the offender amounts to cheating (letting the infractor get away with a cardable offense) the other fencer.

It is rare that I would hesitate in immediately stating the action, but any fencer, coach, etc. that took that hesitation as license to interfere would be carded. This is a fundamental aspect of refereeing that I feel is important. Can fencers talk (sign) to the referee, their feelings on the impending call? Yes. Should they be carded for it? Absolutely. It will stop immediately if the rules are applied. I feel it is a serious weakness for a ref to ignore this rule.

[CvilleFencer]

Depending on the level of the event and the round you need help in, and sometimes the nationality of the judge (East Europeons tend to sell out cheap), tape either a $20, $50 or $100 dollar bill to your guard under your bell pad with the denomination clearly showing. The ref sees it when he lifts the pad while inspecting your weapon. Experiance referees can palm like a vegas cardshark. If they don't accept your offering (almost always because it was not enough) then you can move on to any of the tricks menioned above. In my experiance, when it really counts, nothing sways the ref like a good old fashoined and well delivered bribe.

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by Joe biebel

(The fencer, whether on or off the strip, must keep his mask on until
the Referee calls halt. He may under no circumstances address the Referee until the Referee has made his decision (cf. t.114, t.116, t.120).

Whether it's words or sign language it is clearly against the rules and not carding the offender amounts to cheating (letting the infractor get away with a cardable offense) the other fencer.

Can fencers talk (sign) to the referee, their feelings on the impending call? Yes. Should they be carded for it? Absolutely. It will stop immediately if the rules are applied. I feel it is a serious weakness for a ref to ignore this rule.

Excellent! I look forward to the end of screaming and fist-pumping should referees generally ever adopt this attitude.

[Joe biebel]

Originally Posted by CvilleFencer

Depending on the level of the event and the round you need help in, and sometimes the nationality of the judge (East Europeons tend to sell out cheap), tape either a $20, $50 or $100 dollar bill to your guard under your bell pad with the denomination clearly showing. The ref sees it when he lifts the pad while inspecting your weapon. Experiance referees can palm like a vegas cardshark. If they don't accept your offering (almost always because it was not enough) then you can move on to any of the tricks menioned above. In my experiance, when it really counts, nothing sways the ref like a good old fashoined and well delivered bribe.

t.133 Any denomination offered to a referee less than $50 shall be punished with all 2-light actions and penalties being called against said fencer. The currency must be placed under the bell pad (no clear bellpads may be used for this purpose) so that only the referee and the fencer offering the bribe may actually see the bribe or the amount offered.

[MyrddinsPrecint]

I give them massages.

It really doesn't help me get touches, but it means I'm much more popular.

[MyrddinsPrecint]