How does your approach to Direct Elimination bouts differ from Pools?

[Allen Evans]

How does that comport with the theory, previously advanced by Achilleus and others, that "good" fencers tend to coast in the pools, not trying harder than they have to do, so as to conserve their energy for the DEs?

I had a conversation with two very high level fencers three years ago -- before the current Div 1 format -- that they did not warm up before a NAC. They simply fenced the pool, knowing they would be promoted and that their first two or three DE's would often be very easy. Occasionally they would be surprised in the pool, but they usually could fight their way out, and the size of the Div 1 events, at the time, made it unlikely they would face someone really tough before the 32. At that point, their game would be on. (I would suspect that this strategy has changed).

I also know that in the gold medal bout at the 2006 JO's, Chinman was seeded somewhere in the 40's going into the table (he won the event). I do not know if Chinman "coasted" in the pool, but I was surprised he was seeded that low. He, incidently, had no trouble defeating Hennig in the gold medal bout.

(edit: actually, it might have been longer ago than three years, now that I think about it. The conversation took place at the Olympic Training Center, and it's been some time since I was there).

[chefencer]

It seems the variables are energy conservation vs. seeding (or the ability ot work out of a poor seeding) and difference in 'time' available to adjust your game/react to opponents adjustments are the foci of most value with a note to perhaps husband the best actions for the more do or die DE environment. I had my first ever 15 (instead of 10 - and those were infrequent) touch DE the other Sunday and afterwards I suddenly realized I hadn't really considered how they were different from pools...oooooopsies...

[parrythis]

Pool bouts - little analysis of your opponent. Tendency to rely on attacks that have a higher percentage of success. Pay less attention to time and go for points as much as possible.

DEs - More analysis of your opponent's strengths and weaknesses. Attention to how they are changing their game to adapt to yours. Tendency to rely on attacks that take advantage of your opponents weaknesses. Pay more attention to the time and use it to your advantage if you're ahead on points.

[RITFencing]

3 surprise touches in a pool bout is major, where in a DE it is insignifigant.

I disagree. 3 quick touches in a pool bout can completely shift the momentum of the bout, can make your opponent suddenly very wary of a certain tactic, can put a close bout out of reach towards the end of time... I could go on.

Also, a difference in score of 3 touches can huge. Not as huge as in a 5 touch bout, but I feel MUCH more comfortable leading 11-7 than I do leading 8-7. Or leading 8-7 as copared to losing 5-7.

It's true, though, that there such surprise touches have a larger effect on the overall score of a 5 touch bout. In a DE, I often spend the first period scouting out my opponent and trying to reveal as little information to them as I can. My DEs run to the wire a lot, but rarely end on time or go into priority because towards the end, if there is a defecit in the score to one side or the other, one fencer will have to start attacking, and then one side or the other is going to start racking up touches.

15 touches can take a long while, and you have a long while. I like to take a lot of time to learn my opponent, see how they react to different stimuli, what sorts of things they try, what part of the strip we tend to end up on, what sort of distance they use, what the timings on their actions are, that sort of thing. In a pool bout, I still take some time to learn about an opponent, but I don't need to build up such a complete profile. I try to find an area where I am strong and they are weak, and then focus the bout on that.

One other aspect of DEs... the breaks. Everyone who has had some great advice between DE encounters or just enough of a chance to rest which turned the tide of the bout, raise your hands! Ok, now everyone who has been defeated because the break broke their momentum, or because their opponent's coach noticed something, or whatever. Those one minute breaks in the bout really do affect the score.

[Inquartata]

15 touches can take a long while, and you have a long while.

Meh. Epeeists.

[D'Artag-NOT]

I tend to get very nervous and do very poorly in pools (not that great a fencer or competitor). Surprisingly, in DE I tend to relax more and do better. I think I need to get more aggressive in pools.

[sabreman]

For me DEs are more of a problem because of the finality. In pools I am more relaxed because I rarely face the threat of elimination in VET NACs or regional competitions (haven't fenced D1 NACs since 1997).

[sabreteur]

In early pool bouts I try to intimidate with speed and agression. Towards the end, the remaining opponents have had a chance to scope out my speed and distance, so I switch quickly to trying to make them go short.

The DE's are more calculated. I blow a few points (not intentionaly) trying to get a feel for the other fencer and the ref. In the later rounds, this usually ends up meaning that they make to eight touchs first and then I've got to dig myself out of a hole.

At the eight touch break I like to ask a club mate "What am I doing right and what am I doing wrong?" A fair amount of the time they'll see something that I've missed.

[alexnormann]

My approach is the same in the pool as in the DE's: I try to win every touch. The strategy can change depending on the fencer and the progression of the match.

[RITFencing]

My approach is the same in the pool as in the DE's: I try to win every touch. The strategy can change depending on the fencer and the progression of the match.

That's rather assumed; everyone tries to get every touch. This is more about the differences in how you go about it in longer vs shorter bouts; if you have differences.

[alexnormann]

That's rather assumed; everyone tries to get every touch. This is more about the differences in how you go about it in longer vs shorter bouts; if you have differences.

I know. My point is: all you really need to focus on when you're fencing is getting the next touch. No matter if you're fencing for 5, 15, 45 or something else. They way I go about it varies according to the fencer and the progression of the bout.

[akaiyuki]

I know. My point is: all you really need to focus on when you're fencing is getting the next touch. No matter if you're fencing for 5, 15, 45 or something else. They way I go about it varies according to the fencer and the progression of the bout.

It's a given that everyone should focus on getting the next touch. But that's not all you should be thinking about. I agree the way I fence my DEs varies according the fencer. Well, nobody fences every single one of their DEs the same way.

Against an opponent who I should be able to beat with reasonable comfort, I like to start out the bout strong. I try to score fast and early, giving my opponent the impression that he cannot beat me no matter what he tries. Then not only am I winning the bout physically, but also psychologically. If I relax and start the bout fencing half ass, my opponent will think, "Oh, if I try harder, I might just figure out a way to beat her." That will just make the bout much tougher later on, and allow my opponent the chance to analyze ways to defeat me. Not only is that bad for that particular DE, but next time I fence the same person again, I want him to be AFRAID OF ME MWAHAHAHAAA....

Against some other fencers I like to work with the clock and just try to be ahead when time runs out.
And against some other fencers all I can really think about is really just trying to get the next touch.