loose barrel on epee

[thud]

Hi. Recently the barrel on my epee (french point, if it matters) became very loose. What's the best way to secure it? Thank you.

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by thud

Hi. Recently the barrel on my epee (french point, if it matters) became very loose. What's the best way to secure it? Thank you.

get a 6mm open'ended wrench, tjrow it ont he flats, and crank...but not too much or you may damage the barrel...and be careful not to catch the wires in teh threads.

[Craig]

Get a TIG welder.

A drop of blue loc-tite and a twist w/a wrench or vice-grips should do the trick.

Craig

[mrbiggs]

If you don't have the right wrench, needlenose pliers work too. Just not as well.

Also, you don't need glue for the barrel. It just helps so that you don't have this problem in the future.

[ChrisBrasel]

Silicone will help with giving it alittle grip, and also will make cutting the wires when you tighten the barrel less likely to happen.

[parrythis]

If I'm assembling the weapon for the first time, I'll use blue loctite. If I'm tightening a loose barrel, I'll first apply a drop of green penetrating loctite.

[erik_blank]

I've always felt better about tightening a point if I had two adjustable wrenches one for the barrell and one for the blade just below the point.
As someone earlier mentioned, Be carefull not to OVER TIGHTEN the point. The threading is in a slight cone shape on most of the points,and as you crank down, the cone expands agains the barrel. tighten too much and this cone will crack the barrel, and then no matter hom much you crank down on it, the thing will never stay tight (or just fall apart on you right then and there).
The Locktite (tm) material is always great, and now that I've heard about the penetrating stuff, I'll have to make a trip the local autoshop!

[MyraTrue]

I see a lot of advocating for loc-tite, which I can agree with. I will use loc-tite when assembling a weapon, but I've actually had better luck getting a liquid (not gel) superglue to wick under the threads of a loose barrel before tightening than I have had with loc-tite.

I like the idea they've come up with a penetrating loc-tite. However, (and I could have this very wrong) but isn't green the permanent level? If memory suits, I've been told that you'll never get the barrel off again if you use green (and it's 1am, which makes me soo much more sure of that... )

[SJCFU#2]

IIRC correctly green loc-tite holds tighter than blue but you should still be able to get it loose by mechanical means.

Red is "permanent" and often requires judicious application of heat (to break it down) in order to release.

[fencerbill]

Originally Posted by MyraTrue

I see a lot of advocating for loc-tite, which I can agree with. I will use loc-tite when assembling a weapon, but I've actually had better luck getting a liquid (not gel) superglue to wick under the threads of a loose barrel before tightening than I have had with loc-tite.

What is your experience in later removing the barrel after using the superglue?

Two comments relevant to barrels that have had Loctite or superglue used to prevent loosening:

Hold the blade as close to the barrel as you can. Some blades are not tempered as well as others. If you have to put a lot of twist into undoing the barrel you may twist the blade into a spiral. Twisting into a spiral can happen if you hold the weapon by the grip or near the guard.

If you are using pliers, visegrips, water pump pliers, etc. to hold the blade, orient them so you are not putting pressure that will close the groove. Closing the groove will increase any tendency for the barrel to become loose.

I've handled a lot of blades previously worked on by others. When I couldn't remove the barrel I had to resort to heating the barrel with my soldering gun. I usually smell superglue, don't know what heated Loctite smells like.

[MyraTrue]

Originally Posted by SJCFU#2

IIRC correctly green loc-tite holds tighter than blue but you should still be able to get it loose by mechanical means.

Red is "permanent" and often requires judicious application of heat (to break it down) in order to release.

Ah, check... that makes better sense. I have far less fear of the intermediate grade then going with the permanent, and if penetrating... well, sounds like I may have a good replacement for those superglue tubes which just don't pack up well.

FencerBill- I've never noticed a difference in removing a barrel held in place with loc-tite and with superglue. Granted, in the armory, we have access to a vice, which makes life easier for us as armorers.

I think my choice for superglue over loc-tite has also been how fast it dries. Loc-tite is better in the long run, and when first making the blade (I think). In tournament, I'll do both patch wire jobs ("my wire's coming out") and loose barrel fixes with superglue because it'll be dry in time to put the blade back into action on short notice. There's nothing like being the only armorer (maybe two of us) and having 2 working blades for two teams of upset fencers. Fast fixes are appreciated.

[arc]

Originally Posted by erik_blank

I've always felt better about tightening a point if I had two adjustable wrenches one for the barrell and one for the blade just below the point.
As someone earlier mentioned, Be carefull not to OVER TIGHTEN the point. The threading is in a slight cone shape on most of the points,and as you crank down, the cone expands agains the barrel. tighten too much and this cone will crack the barrel, and then no matter hom much you crank down on it, the thing will never stay tight (or just fall apart on you right then and there).
The Locktite (tm) material is always great, and now that I've heard about the penetrating stuff, I'll have to make a trip the local autoshop!

Two tools are vastly preferred for this fix; I tend to use a set of Vise-Grip pliers on the blade & an adjustable wrench for barrels with flats (yes, I still have some of the old ones without). Preferred, if possible, is the use of a bench vise to hold the weapon.

On the Loctite, the green penetrating version is 290, and the better place to get it is an industrial supply outfit like Grainger. They usually have it on display in their lobby area in a 10mL container which is a little cheaper per unit volume, and as long as you remember to close it, should last you a lifetime (unless you're a club armourer). (I use 242 on tip screws & epee contact springs that won't stay in place; 271 on barrels (this is ostensibly permanent and/or needs heat to break, but I've never had a problem); and 290 to fix barrels that have come loose.)

For those that have expressed concern regarding the "permanent" nature of some versions of Loctite, I've never had a problem except when I've had to get help putting together a lot of blades at once, and the assistant fails to heed my instructions on what a *small* amount of the stuph is needed.

Originally Posted by fencerbill

What is your experience in later removing the barrel after using the superglue?

I've handled a lot of blades previously worked on by others. When I couldn't remove the barrel I had to resort to heating the barrel with my soldering gun. I usually smell superglue, don't know what heated Loctite smells like.

I think if you look at the bottle, the various forms of Loctite are simply specially formulated cyanoacrylate ester glues, which are essentially the same thing as superglue ...

[brtech]

Here is my problem with Loctite/CA on the barrel.

A properly assembled weapon won't have loose barrel problems.

If you get a loose barrel, it probably wasn't tightened properly in the first place, and tightening it properly will fix it (assuming it wasn't so loose that tightening breaks the wire).

If it doesn't fix it, something else is wrong, and probably needs to be fixed. Either the barrel is cracked, or the blade end is somehow damaged. Glueing a cracked barrel is likely to make it stop loosening, but you may still get intermittant white lights (in foil). If the blade end is damaged, you might get more life without a rewire by glueing, but is that really the right way to attack the problem (if the fencer is not down to his last blade of course)?

I don't know any of our more senior armorers who routinely glue or use loctite on the barrel.

I think you all using CA or red loctite are really lucky. I've cracked two barrels brought to me by fencers who had used glue or red loctite before I started using my heat gun when I can't get it off without more force than I think I ought to apply.

Oh, and BTW, vendors sell the right size wrench for the flats. I find that works much better than any other tool, because it's thin enough to fit on the flats exactly, and is always exactly the right width. Vise grips are fine, but I like an adjustable wrench for the blade, which I can hold up right below the barrel. I'll repeat Bill's advice: wrench or vise on the groove and back, not the sides. You get more gripping power that way too. Don't allow the tip to spiral.

Here is a tip an experience armorer gave me:
Save a couple of damaged barrels, or drill out a german one with buggered tip screws and keep the barrels. Save a broken blade. Practice tightening the barrels until you know the difference between "real tight" and "cracked barrel". Also, if you use the same tools consistantly, your "feel" for how much is enough is better. Germans are differnt from French, VA's are different from plain vanilla. Epee is different from foil.

[Mergs]

Cracked barrels usually go 'ting' when they snap; not good when installing one for real, but if you have a bunch of old ones and a blade to practice with, it'll be a good learning aid.

As for removing tips that have been installed with Lock-tite (or thread lock) of the 'I ain't coming loose, even during a Saturn launch' variety, twisting it off may have the effect of twisting the end off the blade if it is one of the ones described earlier. I recommend judicious use of heat and torque if you are in that situation.