Teams at Summer Nationals

[Arbe]

deleted

[KD5MDK]

Fencers are only allowed to fence for a team if they are affiliated with that club, I believe.
It is the responsability of the team captain to protest any rules violations the referee misses (excepting statements of fact, of course)

There's certainly nothing that allows someone not on the roster to fence for a team.

[Frank Pratt]

A fencer can be "affiliated" with multiple clubs, but can only "represent" the first club (s)he represented the first time he or she competed this season. However, There are a some ways in which one can "represent" multiple clubs. I don't know what the circumstances were regarding this particular fencer, so I don't know which rule might apply. Here are the rules from the Athlete's Handbook

The term “club”, as used in these rules, includes any organized fencing group of individual
members. The group may be affiliated with a club, industrial institution, association, or other
entity. A recognized club is one that has a relatively stable organizational structure and
membership, a place for regular fencing activity, and preferably a professional fencing master for
lessons and training. The division affiliation of a member club shall be the primary location where
its regular fencing activity is conducted. A club may only be a member of one division.

A distinction is made between club “affiliation” and “representation.” A fencer may be affiliated
with more than one club but can represent only one of them (except as provided for below) in
USFA competitions during one fencing season.

A. A fencer may at any time resign from one club and join another, or join or hold
membership in two or more clubs. However, within the same fencing season, no fencer may
represent in competition more than one club without special permission of the Board of
Directors. The fencer’s first stated club affiliation at a USFA competition in each fencing
season will determine that fencer’s club representation for that season.

B. A college or scholastic fencer, who is also a member of another recognized club, may
represent his or her school in dual meets and other interscholastic or intercollegiate
competitions, and also represent the other club in USFA competitions. In addition, if the rules
of his or her school conference require it, he or she may represent his or her school or fence
unattached in all USFA individual competitions held during the school fencing season or, in
the case of collegiate fencers, during the period in which NCAA rules regarding playing dates
have jurisdiction. Such fencers may represent their club during the other portions of the
fencing season.

Fencers who represent their club after having represented their school during the fencing
season must represent their club for the remainder of that fencing season. Fencers who
represent their school outside the dates when required to do so, must represent their school
for the remainder of the fencing season. Under no circumstances can fencers represent both
their school and their club at any one National Championship tournament.

C. A fencer who, while a member of a recognized club, elects to fence unattached, may not
be permitted to represent any club during the remainder of the season in individual
competition, and may not compete in team competitions except as noted above for collegiate
fencers in NCAA Division I and Division II schools.

All fencers should notify the National Office of all club affiliations at the start of the fencing season
or as such club affiliations change. They should also notify competition organizers of such
affiliations even if representing another club (or school) or fencing unattached for reasons given
above. Competition organizers should apply the same criteria for separating fencers with the
same club affiliations as they do for fencers with the same club representation.
If a fencer represents a club that closes during the season with no plan of reopening in the future,
or if a fencer makes a permanent move of physical residence into another geographical area, that
fencer may request to have his or her club representation changed, subject to approval. The
resignation of a coach, conflict within a club, or change of affiliation due to either will not be
recognized as justification to change club representation. A fencer in this situation will have to
either remain with his or her stated club or fence unattached for the remainder of the season.

[Arbe]

Hey, how about requiring club patches to be sewn on jackets in order to participate in National team tournaments?

[KD5MDK]

That would require all clubs to have a patch, many of which don't.

[Poulet]

Hey, how about requiring club patches to be sewn on jackets in order to participate in National team tournaments?

They could still easily use the jacket or lame of the person who actually should have been on the team, in many cases.

[Arbe]

You can get 50 patches for less than $100 at http://americanpatch.com/pricechart.html


That's all of $8 for a team of four. Doesn't seem like too much to pay.

[KD5MDK]

Yeah, if you're that fired up to cheat buy a cheapie jacket (Fencesmart had them for $45 at Nats) and get whoever you're pretending to be's name printed on it, or draw it yourself with blue marker. Saw a lot of that happening anyway.

(saw lots of names hand written on, to be exact)

[rcmatthews]

well, as described both teams are fencer's club teams. would it be possible for a person to be an alternate on both teams from the same club?

[keropie]

As I understand it (which is poorly and second hand, but nonetheless), the fencer's club divided itself into two USFA clubs (in the same physical location, etc.). They did this so they could send two teams to the same event at nationals, but by doing so each person at the club has to choose which team they represent. Then they represent that club for the year. So no, I don't think they can be an alternate for both teams.

[KD5MDK]

I know NYAC did this, has FC done it as well?
In any event, no, you cannot represent two clubs in the same season, unless your first club closed without intent to reopen.

[Arbe]

Fencer's Club -> Fencers' Club -> Fencing Club

Sorry for the bad grammar. I corrected the original post. BTW, I am not talking about the NY teams.


I am assuming the ppl didn't break the team club rule on purpose. But this was my first Summer Nat, so who knows?

[rcmatthews]

oh, ok. well anyway, can a club qualify multiple teams for the same event? I don't mean something like Peter Westbrook foundation/Fencers' Club, but actually the same club, just an A team and a B team.

[tbryan]

oh, ok. well anyway, can a club qualify multiple teams for the same event? I don't mean something like Peter Westbrook foundation/Fencers' Club, but actually the same club, just an A team and a B team.

No. Each official club gets at most one team per team event at Nationals.

[knave]

Makes sense they were disqualified. Team rules are quite strict. If a team even fences out of order, they're out. Much less has someone not allowed on their team fencing for them.

[teacup]

Makes sense they were disqualified. Team rules are quite strict. If a team even fences out of order, they're out. Much less has someone not allowed on their team fencing for them.

Actually the FIE changed that rule.

[telkanuru]

Yeah, that's pretty much outright cheating, especially if they weren't on the team list. Were they deliberately hiding his identity, or was the ref just kinda clueless?

In any case, a poor show by the club concerned.

[teacup]

Actually the FIE changed that rule.

The fencing out of order rule.

[fencerbill]

I know NYAC did this, has FC done it as well?
In any event, no, you cannot represent two clubs in the same season, unless your first club closed without intent to reopen.

I believe that the old Operations Manual had a section on this.

It remains true that you can only represent one club at a time.

There used to be listed some reasons why a fencer could change his club affiliation. One was if there was a genuine change of address, like from New York to California. Not sure about Gregg Dillworth. From New Hampshire to Philadelphia - yes. From Philadelphia to New Jersey - Don't know.

Has a new Operations Manual come out? Does the Athletes Handbook cover this? Curious.

From the way I read the initial posting, the team should have been black carded.

[rocky]

As I understand it (which is poorly and second hand, but nonetheless), the fencer's club divided itself into two USFA clubs (in the same physical location, etc.). They did this so they could send two teams to the same event at nationals, but by doing so each person at the club has to choose which team they represent. Then they represent that club for the year. So no, I don't think they can be an alternate for both teams.

FC has not divided itself into two separate clubs for the purpose of sending two teams to Nationals. There is FC and the Peter Westbrook Foundation, though, so, everyone trains at the same place, but the PWF is a distinct, real organization. PWF is "a not-for-profit organization that utilizes the sport of fencing as a vehicle to develop life skills in young people from underserved communities."