A question on the martingale...

[Seraph]

I have never used a wrist strap (martingale) while fencing, so I do not know the answer to this...

But, isn't the martingale supposed to lock your wrist in place with the handle of the blade?

From what I understand, it is completely legal for use with orphopedic grips.

My question is, when used on the Italien grip, does a martingale prevent pommeling?

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EDIT: After doing a search, I have come to find out that the martingale and a wrist strap are two different accessories.
In which case, in this post, I'm referring to a wrist strap.

My question still is: Does a [wrist strap] prevent pommeling when used in Italian foil?

[fencerbill]

Originally Posted by Seraph

I have never used a martingale while fencing, so I do not know the answer to this...

But, isn't the martingale supposed to lock your wrist in place with the handle of the blade?

From what I understand, it is completely legal for use with orphopedic grips.

My question is, when used on the Italien grip, does a martingale prevent pommeling?

No, that is a wrist strap.

A martingale is a loop (all I have seen have been leather) that is held between the pad and a French grip handle. You put two fingers through it. It firms up your hold on the French grip and seems to give you better control and an ability to make stronger beats and parries.

It is easier to keep them sorted out if you have had any experience putting tack on a horse. A martingale is frequently used to keep a horse from throwing his head up and smashing you in the face. They don't use wrist straps on horses.

There really isn't any need to use a martingale with an orthopedic grip or an Italian grip. It would be superfluous since the shape of the orthopedic grip or the ricasso of the Italian grip does the same thing. I don't know whether a martingale can be used with an orthopedic grip, nobody cares.

Wrist straps were often used with Italian grips. A real question is whether wrist straps can be used with other orthopedic grips?

The rule talks about "fixing the hand in a single position". A Visconti grip is a typical allowed orthopedic grip which sometimes has a long rear prong. Can you only hold it in one position? Practically speaking you could also hold it by the prong or you could hold an Italian grip behind the ricasso. But I don't think you could fence very well or very long by doing so. And I don't think anyone would allow you to.

[RITFencing]

I will try and not say anything about the viability of various grips. It's been done to death and I'm sure you've seen a bunch. I'm also going to assume that the question has to do with modern, USFA/FIE style fencing.

I think a martingale was made to be used with a French grip, not an Italian. There is, however, or at least was, a different type of strap for use with the Italian. This may be rather moot, as I think the Italian grip is considered to be orthopedic (can anyone back me up on this?) and therefore A) cannot be held in such a way that the thumb is more than 2 cm from the back of the bell guard, so no posting, and B) cannoth have any tape or anything to that effect attached to it.

Disregarding all those rules, yes, a properly attached wrist strap will prevent you from posting with an Italian grip.

[Seraph]

Sorry about the confusion. I was referring to a wrist strap. :-/

[RITFencing]

No worries, it's a really common mistake.

[Goldgar]

Originally Posted by Seraph

I have never used a wrist strap (martingale) while fencing, so I do not know the answer to this...

But, isn't the martingale supposed to lock your wrist in place with the handle of the blade?

From what I understand, it is completely legal for use with orphopedic grips.

My question is, when used on the Italien grip, does a martingale prevent pommeling?

A wrist strap and a martingale are two different things. The purpose of a martingale is to keep the weapon from flying off dangerously if you should happen to be disarmed. The purpose of a wrist strap is to assist you in wielding your weapon.

It sounds like you're asking about the use of the wrist strap, not a martingale. A wrist strap is legal with the orthopedic or Italian handles. I don't believe it is legal with a French handle, as it would constitute an attachment that fixes the position of the hand on the grip, but does not fix it in only one position, and can be used to fix a position more than 2 cm from the inside of the guard.

You may not use a wrist strap to support pommeling on an Italian handle, as that would essentially be the same as using it with a French grip -- you'd be using the "device" of the wrist strap to fix your hand at a position more than 2cm from the inside of the guard.

[RITFencing]

The reason the gardere is illegal is because it fixes the hand in a position such that the thumb is further than 2cm from the bell guard. You might want to check up on the rules as to what is legal in an epee grip.

EDIT: I somehow think our posts got switched around... how curious. ANyway, I'll go dig up the rules on epee grips. Back in a few.

[Seraph]

Alright... about the wrist strap...
The general idea I've seen around the forums is that the wrist strap, which is legal on all orpho handles, is used to lock the hand and wrist in place while fencing. In fact, it even prevents pommeling on the Italian grip, which can also be used with the wrist strap.

The main point I'm getting at here is this:

One of the most commonly debated grips is the Gardere grip, which is classified as an orphopedic grip. While searching, the number one reason I found that the Gardere is considdered illegal is because you still retain the same amount of strength while pommeling, as you would if you held it regularly.

So, my question is, if the rules made it mandatory to wear a wrist strap while fencing with a Gardere, couldn't you solve the problem of pommeling?

[Seraph]

Originally Posted by RITFencing

The reason the gardere is illegal is because it fixes the hand in a position such that the thumb is further than 2cm from the bell guard. You might want to check up on the rules as to what is legal in an epee grip.

That's debatable depending on the length of the fencer's fingers. And in a worst case scenario, I could modify the grip and take out some length between the guard and the thumb prong. As far as I know, the rules don't state that removing length is illegal- only adding length. And I have very thin fingers

[Seraph]

Originally Posted by RITFencing

The reason the gardere is illegal is because it fixes the hand in a position such that the thumb is further than 2cm from the bell guard. You might want to check up on the rules as to what is legal in an epee grip.

EDIT: I somehow think our posts got switched around... how curious. ANyway, I'll go dig up the rules on epee grips. Back in a few.

I'm speaking from a foilists' perspective. However, it would be nice to know the epee rules as well

[RITFencing]

Originally Posted by The Rules

m.4

1. The maximum length of the grip at foil and épée is 20 cm,
measured between lines B and E, and 18 cm, measured
between lines B and D. At sabre the maximum length of
the grip is 17 cm (see Figures 8, 9 and 13, pp. 80, 83, 88).

2. The grip must be able to pass through the same gauge as
the guard. It must be so made that normally it cannot injure
either the user or his opponent.

3. All types of hilts are allowed providing that they conform
to the regulations which have been framed with a view to
placing the various types of weapons on the same footing.
However, at épée, orthopaedic grips, whether metal or not,
may not be covered with leather or any material which
could hide wires or switches.

4. The grip must not include any device which assists the
fencer to use it as a throwing weapon.

5. The grip must not include any device which can increase in
any way the protection afforded to the hand or wrist of the
fencer by the guard: a cross bar or electric socket which
extends beyond the edge of the guard is expressly
forbidden.

6. If the grip (or glove) includes any device or attachment or
has a special shape (orthopaedic) which fixes the position
of the hand on the grip, the grip must conform to the
following conditions.

(a) It must determine and fix one position only for the
hand on the grip.

(b) When the hand occupies this one position on the grip,
the extremity of the thumb when completely extended
must not be more than 2 cm from the inner surface of
the guard.

Doesn't actually say anything about which grips can be used with wrist straps or anything of the sort. What it does say is that, as I said, with an orthopedic grip, the thumb cannot be fixed more than 2cm form the bellguard. You could use a wrist strap with a french or ortho grip, or italian, (I've only seen it with a french).

As far as the gardere grip: even with a wrist strp, your hand is still fixed too far back. Furthermore... the whole point of that grip was to give you the extra reach advantage. Why would you want to use it when you take said advantage away? Furthermore, would it even be useable with your thumb up by the bell pad?

[Goldgar]

Originally Posted by Seraph

That's debatable depending on the length of the fencer's fingers. And in a worst case scenario, I could modify the grip and take out some length between the guard and the thumb prong. As far as I know, the rules don't state that removing length is illegal- only adding length. And I have very thin fingers

Depending on the size of your hand, you may pass the thumb-no-more-than-2cm-from-the-guard test. But it looks to me from pictures -- I haven't actually seen one of these animals -- that the grip can be held and effectively wielded with the hand in more than one position. If so, the grip is illegal even if your thumb is within 2cm of the inside of the guard.

[RITFencing]

Originally Posted by Goldgar

Depending on the size of your hand, you may pass the thumb-no-more-than-2cm-from-the-guard test. But it looks to me from pictures -- I haven't actually seen one of these animals -- that the grip can be held and effectively wielded with the hand in more than one position. If so, the grip is illegal even if your thumb is within 2cm of the inside of the guard.

Good point there; an ortho grip must fix the hand in ONE way.

[Goldgar]

Originally Posted by RITFencing

Doesn't actually say anything about which grips can be used with wrist straps or anything of the sort. What it does say is that, as I said, with an orthopedic grip, the thumb cannot be fixed more than 2cm form the bellguard. You could use a wrist strap with a french or ortho grip, or italian, (I've only seen it with a french).

I don't believe a wrist strap may be used with a French grip.

[Seraph]

Personally, I just like the way the Gardere fits in my hand- I never even thought about the extra reach it gave by default. I just like the way my fingers spread between the prongs, and I feel I have better finger control with the Gardere.

I know with my hand shape (I have long, thin fingers) my thumb already extends very close to the bell, so very little removal would be needed to get it to the 2cm mark (That is, if it's not already there). And with a wrist strap securing my position to prevent moving to a pommeling position (the complaint against the Gardere), technically, it's legal. But only because of the wrist strap and my fingers.

I guess it sounds crazy, but I love my finger control, and I hate not having the option to compete professionally with the Gardere.

[RITFencing]

Originally Posted by Goldgar

I don't believe a wrist strap may be used with a French grip.

I know John Proctor from FEX does, and I've seen him compete at your club.

Seraph: None of us have the option of really competing professionally, but I get what you mean. Are there any other grips that give you a similar sense of control?

[Seraph]

Originally Posted by RITFencing

Seraph: None of us have the option of really competing professionally, but I get what you mean. Are there any other grips that give you a similar sense of control?

Haha, by prefessionaly I meant USFA tournaments/ etc. As far as grips, the runner-up is a tie between french and belgium.

[Goldgar]

Originally Posted by RITFencing

I know John Proctor from FEX does, and I've seen him compete at your club.

I've only seen him use the wrist strap with his Italian handle -- in fact, I've fenced against him while he was using it. I don't recall seeing him using the strap with a French handle -- if I had, I would remember the argument we'd have had. <g>

[RITFencing]

You might want to look at different belgian grips, try to find one brand and size that you like. I really can't recommend the french for competitive foil; it just doesn't give you the control of an orthopedic and there's really no upside to compensate for it.

[Goldgar]

Originally Posted by Seraph

I know with my hand shape (I have long, thin fingers) my thumb already extends very close to the bell, so very little removal would be needed to get it to the 2cm mark (That is, if it's not already there). And with a wrist strap securing my position to prevent moving to a pommeling position (the complaint against the Gardere), technically, it's legal. But only because of the wrist strap and my fingers.

Theoretically, you may be able to get away with that combination, but you'll have to have an open-minded referee. Good luck, if you try it, and have a backup plan.

I guess it sounds crazy, but I love my finger control, and I hate not having the option to compete professionally with the Gardere.

Have you tried a Russian handle? I like the big Negrini ones best. They're clunky feeling in the hand, but they let you use your fingers almost like a French.