Calling for time....

[BrisGirl]

I know the rule applies to a different sport, but I have just come back from the U17 Australian Nationals and saw an incident that I would require a coach to have the opportunity to call time out.

A young 16 year old, in the a sabre semi final fell badly on his knee, he got up. gave it a rub and then proceeded on to lose, seeing he was continually rubbing his leg thoughout the rest of the bout.

In this instance, I believe it was his lack of knowledge of his rights or he didn't want to bring attention to himself, who knows, but I was clear to me he was hurt and someone should be able to call time and ask the boy directly if he needed a medical break.

Seeing they are only young people finding their way in the sport, I believe Coaches should be able to call time when their student is in trouble if the situation calls for it, and only then.

The trouble is, you can see some Coaches using this to stall for time, and that is where it will come into question.

[bigdawg2121]

It's his job to ask for an injury timeout. If he doesn't then he must think he's able to fence ok without it.

[CvilleFencer]

I know that is what the rules say technically, but when you are dealing with a minor, I would think that their parent or the person whose care they are in at the event (in this case the coach) could indeed make the call for him and ask for a 10 minute break/medical review. After all, a minor is a minor and at least in the states they are generally assumed to be no difference in their capabitlies from birth to 18 when they magically suddenly know everything...

[mackillian]

And 19 is the age where you realize, "Oh my god, I know NOTHING."

[Falcon (XB :)]

Do you recall who was refereeing at the time? Normally advice given to our more experienced refs is for them to use some commonsense and at least ask a fencer if they are okay, after a fall or hard hit, or whatever - especially if they are juniors or cadets.

Strictly speaking a coach shouldn't interfere on an injury count, and sure the kid should ask or say something if there's a problem, but referees have some obligations in terms of the safety and well-being of the people they are officiating over, too. There was more than one medical officer present, and referees can stop a bout and endeavour to have an injury looked at by any of the medical staff, without the kid or coach or parent saying anything.

In the end, did the kid need further medical attention?

[erooMynohtnA]

Coach: "Hey, kid, call for time!" Problem solved.

[purpzeyFCLI]

Given the fact that it was a kid I think perhaps the director should definately at least ask, and remind him he has an injury time out if he wants it.

Again, in the case of a minor it makes things a little different b/c ultimately they aren't legally responsible for their own fate. If that is the case, can the guardian call a time-out for an injury?

There is definately some truth to the argument tell the kid "Call an injury time out"...But, if the kid is really hurt, there should be a "fail-safe"

Ultimately, we don't want anyone getting hurt. Especially a kid, winning or no winning, the idea is to have fun and most importantly to make it home.

[DieterS]

Do you recall who was refereeing at the time? Normally advice given to our more experienced refs is for them to use some commonsense and at least ask a fencer if they are okay, after a fall or hard hit, or whatever - especially if they are juniors or cadets.

Strictly speaking a coach shouldn't interfere on an injury count, and sure the kid should ask or say something if there's a problem, but referees have some obligations in terms of the safety and well-being of the people they are officiating over, too. There was more than one medical officer present, and referees can stop a bout and endeavour to have an injury looked at by any of the medical staff, without the kid or coach or parent saying anything.

In the end, did the kid need further medical attention?

At a national tournament a few years ago, I saw one young man leap in the air to get a touch while his opponent stepped under him. The result was that the fencer was hit very hard in the groin and was doubled over on the floor. The referee then continually pestered him, telling him to get up and fence. Finally, the referee accused him of faking an injury. Some onlookers suggested to the referee that he should give the fencer ten minutes to recover but he refused. His coach wasn't there to intervene on his behalf, so after a couple of minutes, the young man struggled to his feet and the other fencer quickly finished him off (it was a pool bout). The referee seemed happy to save so much time and said something insulting to that effect.

What I saw made me pretty mad--I was amazed at the referees behavior. I think that referees should err on the side of caution when potential injury is involved. Looking back, I should have reported the referee to the bout committee. I assume that the bout committee would intervene in response to a complaint. Right?

Dieter

[BrisGirl]

In the end, did the kid need further medical attention?

From memory.....no.

But from being witness to it, the young man was in his first National Semi-final, there was a lot of people watching, and it was a big moment in his life. When you have a young man who has never been in this situation before, I thought he didn't want to call attention to himself, or seem to be weak, but the fact that he constantly leaned down and rubbed his knee was enough for me to feel he needed someone to look at it. I guess the fact that he had fallen badly was embarrassing enough for him, maybe he didn't want to draw further attention to himself.

Personally, I thought in this instance, a Coach who has the care of the minor should be allowed to call time.

[PeterGustafsson]

Hi!


When I went to referee course here in Sweden, we were told in no uncertain terms that our first priority was to maintain safety, and that that superseded the other rules if need be. We were told to err on the side of caution whenever safety seemed to be at risk.


Have a nice time!

Peter Gustafsson

[Bryn Ralph]

Notwithstanding the young person's injury, perhaps those of us in the profession of arms should review the culture that tends to promote some degree of questionable behaviour of certain referees. Most fencers would agree that the ethical behaviour of referees in the past twenty years has altered from acceptable practice. I submit that all fencers (instructors, coaches, referees) review a code of honour and appropriate behaviour in order to return the sport of fencing to its legitimacy; The Athlete's Handbook and the Referee's Handbook published by the USFA attempts to remind all fencers to adhere to fairplay and safety.

And, I might add, report any referee whose behaviour invites constructive criticism. The referee has a weighty responsibility, and as such, should apply his/her technical expertise and common sense in order to assure that the playing field is conducive to an honourable exchange between two competitors, regardless of their age.

[KD5MDK]

Are you saying it used to be much better, and is now going downhill?

[MyrddinsPrecint]

In my experience, usually when someone takes a hard fall (or something else like that) either the director or the opponent (or both) ask if the fencer is OK--- if it seems like they are lying when they say "yes," the director usually asks if they need their 10 minutes. Perhaps more people should do so?

[Falcon (XB :)]

Personally, I thought in this instance, a Coach who has the care of the minor should be allowed to call time.

Well, as erooMynohtnA suggests, a coach can yell to a fencer, "Ask for injury time!!" It alerts the fencer to their rights, if they've forgotten, and the referee will certainly start to consider whether the kid is injured or not.

At the U17 Nats, if the fencer (Jackson Newton? or whowever) had asked the referee, what would have happened then is that the referee would have had to stop the bout, look around for a medical officer, or ask the DT to call for a medic to the piste he was on. This happened several times throughout the tournament you know. You must have heard it.

Once the medical person verifies that there is a problem, up to 10 mins can be taken for that injury, starting at that moment. So in practice, injury time can be extended quite a bit, simply because the injury must be verified.

Rulewise, both the AFF Referees Commission and the DT tends to err on the side of safety first when it comes to deciding what is appropriate were it to come to a question of "was it right to stop the bout for that alleged injury?" for example. If an onlooker is concerned that something is being missed, too, they can always search for and talk to the Director of Referees for the tournament.

[BrisGirl]

At the U17 Nats, if the fencer (Jackson Newton? or whowever) had asked the referee, what would have happened then is that the referee would have had to stop the bout, look around for a medical officer, or ask the DT to call for a medic to the piste he was on. This happened several times throughout the tournament you know. You must have heard it..

I was only a spectator and was high up in the stands, so if the fencer was asked, and he refused, then I can only apologise for the misconception of my question and for not knowing the facts of this particular case.

I only brought it up due to the fact that I though Coaches of minors should be able to call for time, if they feel the need to do so.

[RITFencing]

As a referee, I'm inclined to be lenient on interruptions if there could be a genuine safety issue. If someone notices that a fencer is hurt before me, I don't really have a problem with them pointing it out.

[downunder]

I was only a spectator and was high up in the stands, so if the fencer was asked, and he refused, then I can only apologise for the misconception of my question and for not knowing the facts of this particular case.

I only brought it up due to the fact that I though Coaches of minors should be able to call for time, if they feel the need to do so.

and to be fair, if it was Jackson, he has done his fair share of national competitions and certainly knows what he is doing. I know Jackson well enough, and if he was badly hurt he would have stopped, in my opinion.