Fencing.Net - Your Guide to Fencing & Fencing Equipment

AndrewH · 04-25-2002, 06:37 PM

I just finished watching the Empire Strikes Back and you know what? Darth Vader and Luke were pretty crappy fencers! I mean, between the huge preparations and parries at very odd angles, I'd say that any decent fencer today could take down Vader.

I wonder who did the choreography? He deserves a good talking to...

shyHeidi · 04-25-2002, 07:12 PM

But who wants to watch lots of itsy bitsy disengages and tight little parries when they've got those light sabers that make those kool swish noises and vader's got that nice swishy cape and everything... And all that interesting terrain to fence over... ... ...

SäbelFechter · 04-25-2002, 07:16 PM

I was at the bookstore today and looked at this one book about Attack of the Clones. It was rather amusing to see that they had a full explanation of how Jedi fight with light-sabres in it with all the parries and attacks described. Not surprisingly some of it was similar to fencing, but much of it was not.

As for the duels in the earlier movies, I think George Lucas himself admitted that they look rather bad compared to the ones in the newer flicks. It reminds me of another movie I saw recently with bad fencing (can't remember the name) - in it they had too characters all decked out in their fencing gear and going at it with foils. The only problem was they were just moving back & forth and clanging the blades together like they were parrying with sabres.

But then again, lets not forget theatrical fencing is completely different from sport fencing. It's designed to look good not to be effective in a real bout. And the average movie-goer wouldn't recognize bad fencing anyway.

[ 04-25-2002: Message edited by: SäbelFechter ]

shyHeidi · 04-25-2002, 07:24 PM

[quote] But then again, lets not forget theatrical fencing is completely different from sport fencing. It's designed to look good not to be effective in a real bout. And the average movie-goer wouldn't recognize bad fencing anyway.<hr></blockquote>

Exactly my point!

D'Artagnan1673 · 04-25-2002, 07:39 PM

Lets all admit. Before we started fencing and before Episode I came out, we all thought that Darth Vader and Luke were awesome.

Yes, as soon as I started playing around with swords for myself, I realized just how poor they were, but at the time they were awesome.

AndrewH · 04-25-2002, 07:42 PM

Bad Ideas #239:

Go to a tournament dressed as Darth Vader. Paint your sabre bright neon red and, as you salute, proclaim that "the force is with you". Instead of shaking hands after a loss, attempt to choke the opponent. Ditto for bad calls by the director. Claim to be every opponent's father. While standing beside a bout in progress, breath loudly 3 inches away from the strip.

Hey, at least people won't know it's you! Cept, you'd have to clean that paint off your sabre....

SäbelFechter · 04-25-2002, 07:51 PM

Hey, sounds like a good idea there AndrewH.

Think I'll try that at the next tournament. Of course now I'll have to find a FIE approved Darth Vader costume somewhere. <img src="graemlins/evild.gif" border="0" alt="[Evil]" />

D'Artagnan1673 · 04-25-2002, 08:05 PM

interesting idea. I have briefly considered painting the mesh of my mask in the design of the imperial stormtrooper helmet.

When you've grown up from age 3 loving Star Wars, its hard to look down upon their lightsabre duels now that you are well educated in the art of the sword.

In truth, other than speed and a few nice effects, just how much better are the new light sabre duels? I've watched them countless times and become less impressed each time. They should make me a jedi extra in the next movie and I'll cream those bad guys with the point of my sabre. Why get in close when you can hit from afar?

I see dead people · 04-25-2002, 10:22 PM

[quote]Originally posted by AndrewH:
I just finished watching the Empire Strikes Back and you know what? Darth Vader and Luke were pretty crappy fencers! I mean, between the huge preparations and parries at very odd angles, I'd say that any decent fencer today could take down Vader.
<hr></blockquote>

Vader Tactic number 1: Force Push the opponent off the end of the stripe 15 times.
Vader Tactic number 2: Mind trick the director into giving the opponent a black card.
Vader Tactic number 3: Mind Read your opponent, and give out the details of the most embarrassing memory to everyone in the tournament during the 1 minute resting period.

Conclusion: any avarage, or top fencer for that matter, doesn't stand a chance against Vader.

*According to the current FIE rule, the above tactics are perfectly legal

[ 04-26-2002: Message edited by: I see dead people ]

Gav · 04-25-2002, 10:41 PM

Yeah, use of the Force isn't covered by any FIE rule I'm aware of.

But seriously, you have to take the original fight scenes in contect. Although cinema audiences were aware of Martial arts at that time, it hadn't truly crossed over into the mainstream. This meant that the lightsabre scenes
were based upon traditional western forms. Compare the scenes Star Wars - Return of the Jedi then Return of the Jedi to Episode 1. You can clearly see an improvement in the portrayal of the lightsabre as some sort of mystical martial arts weapon as you follow the films. This a due to the inclusion (graduall) of eastern martial arts into our expectations.

Interestingly the original Star Wars was based mainly on Epee. The guy who taught Vader and Obi Wan was Bob Anderson my coaches coach (or should that be masters master

). Sadly my coach had lost touch with Bob so I've never had the chance to find out much more than that.

sabreur · 04-25-2002, 11:47 PM

I always thought light sabre had more to do with kendo and kenjutsu than with any western weapon--especially in Episode One (in which the fencing is much better, IMNSHO).

MR

Event Horizon · 04-26-2002, 02:47 AM

Of course Vader has to have those tactics. Can you blame him? The poor guy has asthma. Why do you think he's weezing all the time? Would someone get him his inhaler please!! <img src="graemlins/dunce.gif" border="0" alt="[Dunce]" />

D'Artagnan1673 · 04-26-2002, 06:57 AM

If you watch A New Hope, you will see a lot of circular parrying and the use of the point. That seems to have been lost in the next three movies.

Despite my preference for western swordsmanship, I have always envisioned the light sabre as being an eastern weapon. It resembles the Katanan to an extent. The main difference is that both sides of the light sabre may be used for cutting while only one side of a Katana is used for cutting.

I am not too hopeful for Episode II. In my mind, Lucas has already proved that he's lost his feel for Star Wars, or that he doesn't care and just wants more money. He is trying to wow us with effects rather than giving us story and atmosphere as with the original trilogy. Jar Jar ruined the few scenes that actually had that feel. Its really a shame that Lucas hasn't been up to par. I've seen the trailers and the guy they have for Anakin is too much of a crybaby, completely unlikeable.

Purple Fencer · 04-26-2002, 09:51 AM

[quote]Originally posted by Event Horizon:
Of course Vader has to have those tactics. Can you blame him? The poor guy has asthma. Why do you think he's weezing all the time? Would someone get him his inhaler please!! <img src="graemlins/dunce.gif" border="0" alt="[Dunce]" /> <hr></blockquote>

Vader to director after a particularly energetic action "That wasn't the parry you were looking for..."

D'Artagnan1673 · 04-26-2002, 09:56 AM

LOL!!! But wouldn't that have been Obi-Wan-Kanobi?

Purple Fencer · 04-26-2002, 03:30 PM

[quote]Originally posted by D'Artagnan1673:
LOL!!! But wouldn't that have been Obi-Wan-Kanobi?<hr></blockquote>

Well, yeah...but it's VADER who'd cheat!

Event Horizon · 04-26-2002, 09:30 PM

While we are on the subject. Knowing what you know now (since many of us grew up on Star Wars before we got into Fencing--generalization I know, but I'll go out on a limb) do you buy Yoda being a Jedi Fencing master? Or is he just good in the Jedi ways? I can't picture him dueling with any baddie. <img src="graemlins/fett.gif" border="0" alt="[The Fett]" />

reptile · 04-26-2002, 10:53 PM

[quote]Originally posted by AndrewH:
Bad Ideas #239:

Go to a tournament dressed as Darth Vader. Paint your sabre bright neon red and, as you salute, proclaim that "the force is with you". Instead of shaking hands after a loss, attempt to choke the opponent. Ditto for bad calls by the director. Claim to be every opponent's father. While standing beside a bout in progress, breath loudly 3 inches away from the strip.

Hey, at least people won't know it's you! Cept, you'd have to clean that paint off your sabre....<hr></blockquote>

Thanks for the idea, see you on the strip in your Luke costume...

<img src="graemlins/fett.gif" border="0" alt="[The Fett]" />

shyHeidi · 04-27-2002, 12:07 AM

[quote]Originally posted by D'Artagnan1673:
I've seen the trailers and the guy they have for Anakin is too much of a crybaby, completely unlikeable.<hr></blockquote>

Have you seen "Life as a House"? It's got that guy in it... His character was pretty screwed up. I can't say I minded his acting though.

Matt Ostergard · 04-27-2002, 02:02 PM

<a href="http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/020421/nysu017a_1.html" target="_blank">http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/020421/nysu017a_1.html</a>

Hey! Read that! There's hope for Episode 2!