Division III Team Events

[Frank Pratt]

Division I Team events are limited to fencers rated "C" and above, and Senior events are open to all fencers. Would it make more sense to replace the Senior Team events with a new Division III Team category, which would be limited to fencers rated "D" and below? This would still give all fencers a chance to compete in team events, and it might make the team tournaments more enjoyable for the U, E, and D rated fencers if they are not slaughtered by three "As" in the first round.

I'm just throwing out the idea; it's not necessarily a good one. Comments?

[epeeisky]

I like this idea. One of the reason why my club didn't field a team is because it would have been 2 U's and a C competing against teams that would have had 3 A epeeists. Our team would have been a very low seed and probally would have gotten knocked out in the first round, which would be a very expensive one round experience.

[Peach]

I think it would be a nice idea for clubs that have many members and want to compete in team. However, our club couldn't field the WS team we do manage to scrounge up then--I'm a B & the other two might (I think) have E's--one of them isn't even a sabre fencer.

ETA: We will probably get knocked out in the first round of the Senior Team, but that's fine with us--we're all there already.

[IHateMrPotatohead]

We're really fencing the team event for fun. We know we're going to get slaughtered fairly early, but it'll be a fun and different experience for us. (We don't usually have the opportunity to fence in the team format.) However, I really do like the idea of a Div. III team event. Pretty neat!

[little_old_me]

I think it sounds like a good idea, but if they make DivIII, they'll end up making DivII also. At least, I think they should. If not, then they should just make DivII. After all, anyone who would be eligible (by rating) for Div3 would be eligible for D2. Plus, that lets the Cs compete.

[mlr2fence]

With the way its scheduled, I don't think that there will be that many As fencing Sr Team, at least in epee. I doubt if alot of the D1, 1A, Cadet and Jr guys will hang around that long.

[tbryan]

Division I Team events are limited to fencers rated "C" and above, and Senior events are open to all fencers. Would it make more sense to replace the Senior Team events with a new Division III Team category, which would be limited to fencers rated "D" and below? This would still give all fencers a chance to compete in team events, and it might make the team tournaments more enjoyable for the U, E, and D rated fencers if they are not slaughtered by three "As" in the first round.

I'm just throwing out the idea; it's not necessarily a good one. Comments?

Interesting, but I don't know that I see a lot of value in it. Nationals is long enough, and team events aren't that fast to run.

I fenced a team event in epee a few years ago. That team was a C, an E, and a U. We ended up knocked out in the first round 45-43. The first round isn't always *that* bad. The other team was roughly the same strength as my team.

The seeding of the team is based on your (weighted) results in Div III, Div II, and Div IA. If you have three fencers who did exteremely well in Div III, then you'll seed higher than a team who has 3 fencers who only fenced the Div IA but who all did really poorly.

Personally, I love fencing in team events with the running score to 45 format. I would love to see more tournaments (outside of nationals) held with that format, especially if they could fence off for all positions. That way, every team gets the same number of matches.

Of course, I think that it would be a nightmare to host and run such an event.

[kilo_foxtrot]

My club has run one or two of them, and they haven't been too bad. They were moderately sized affairs , with a handful or two of teams for each weapon.

Something larger, say Nationals size... I can easily see where that could get chaotic. Still, they're hella fun.

[RITFencing]

Dude, ours weren't div 3... there were As, Bs and Cs in each, if I recall correctly.

[kilo_foxtrot]

Even so, it was a team tournament and also quite a hoot. The division or level wasn't my primary focus. I only handled the money, remember? :-P

[CvilleFencer]

Personally, I love fencing in team events with the running score to 45 format. I would love to see more tournaments (outside of nationals) held with that format, especially if they could fence off for all positions. That way, every team gets the same number of matches.

Of course, I think that it would be a nightmare to host and run such an event.

What other type of team event is there? Just so I understand you correctly we are talking about the format where each fencer fencers every fencer on the other team for three minutes or until the point cap is reached. The point cap is five points a bout for the team that is ahead or up to the cap for the team that is behind. 9 bouts, 27 minutes and or 45 points later the team ahead wins. Not the best description but is that the type of team event you meant?

That is the only kind of team events we do up here, so if you want more of that I will try to remember to drop you a line the next time we have a team event that is not a State Game or a Qualifier.

[seak]

well you can always do team events full dual meet style, or IFA (NIWFA) format (slightly diff type of dual meet)

[tbryan]

What other type of team event is there?

There's a format (I think the dual meet that seak mentions) that treats each encounter of the match like a point in a bout. So, my team fences your team just like ususal. There are a maximum of 9 bouts possible. Each bout is an independent five touch bout (no running score). The first team to 5 victories wins the encounter.

NCAA teams fence this format of team event. I'm not as fond of it as I am for the standard USFA team format (running score to 45).

[CvilleFencer]

Seak, I am not familiar with those styles. If you would not mind elaborating I would appreciate it!

[CvilleFencer]

There's a format (I think the dual meet that seak mentions) that treats each encounter of the match like a point in a bout. So, my team fences your team just like ususal. There are a maximum of 9 bouts possible. Each bout is an independent five touch bout (no running score). The first team to 5 victories wins the encounter.

Okay, gottcha. Yeah, I would not like that as much either. It takes away some of the come behind by one point fun and a lot of the team strategy aspect (weaker fencer delaying or trying to hold off a stronger fencer, a strong fencer having to work hard to make up a lot of points, etc) that I like about the team events. Otherwise they are just pool bouts with the added bonus of being grumpy with your teammates/friends if they blow a pool bout. We have been talking about trying to do more team events in the coming season so hopefully you can bring a team up. Maybe that rogue copycat CFA down your way (never mind that they had those initials first...) can bring a team as well and we can fence for the right to use the straight CFA on Fred! That would be kind of cool...

[KD5MDK]

The other team format is best of 9 5 touch bouts. So, fence until one team has won 5 bouts, with competitors alternating on a set rotation.

Plus, that lets the Cs compete.

Cs are eligable for Div I Team, despite not competing in the Div I individual event.

[seak]

It's actually best of 27 in a full dual meet, 9 bouts in each weapon, so you fence all three members of the other team in your weapon, and you fence all the way (you don't stop once one team has reached 14).

IFA format is slighty different (it's used for NIWFA's USACFC's etc) you designate an A, B, and C fencer in each weapon. The A fences the other teams A, the B the other B, and the C the C. For a best out of 9.

All bouts till 5.

Yes it has the drawback of one fencer not being able to make up a lot of points, but that also stresses more having a more balanced team, as opposed to one super fencer. Also it works better as a three weapon format, which college matches tend to be.

There is also strategy involving substitution etc.

I like both formats.

Another format I have participated in was 3 fencers, one from each weapon, first to 15, stopping to switch weapons at 5 and 10. I was not as big a fan of this format becuase which weapon went last had a lot to do with who won. For instance if our Epee fencer went last we weren't going to lose, but our sabre and foil were weaker, and so if Epee went first we had more problems.

[KD5MDK]

IFA format is slighty different (it's used for NIWFA's USACFC's etc) you designate an A, B, and C fencer in each weapon. The A fences the other teams A, the B the other B, and the C the C. For a best out of 9.

That's only 3 bouts. You need a bout order for AvB, AvC, BvA,BvC, or whatever.

[seak]

No, it's 9: A vs A in foil, A vs. A in Sabre etc. These are collegiate formats collegiate teams matches are generally 3 - weapon not single weapon like USFA.

The difference between IFA format and full dual meet, is that you don't fence B and C in your weapon only the other A

[Frank Pratt]

I fenced a team event in epee a few years ago. That team was a C, an E, and a U. We ended up knocked out in the first round 45-43. The first round isn't always *that* bad. The other team was roughly the same strength as my team.

Well, that's a little re-assuring. We're going into Sr. Team ME with a C, 2 Es, and a U. However, none of us are going to compete in the individual events (Div IA, II, or III,) so our seeding is going to suck. . .