Argh!

[The Fish]

I've had this before and so I'm not worried about becoming disillusioned with fencing and leaving etc. - in fact I'm quite determined to become a very good fencer, which I think I can do with time and training. I'm 15 now and fencing with others my age and I'm just wondering - is it usual for .. very aggressive, fast and argumentative people to dominate tournaments at the low level? Does it happen at every level? Have I missed something and is fencing about this? Perhaps I'm just a sore loser ( ) but I'm just beginning to get that feeling that either I'm becoming much worse as time goes on or that I'm being repeatedly beaten by people I consider, arrogantly, to not be that.. good?

Sorry about the narcissism.

[HDG]

Can you provide some specific examples of instances and what you perceived happening? In particular, what is the perceived role of their argumentativeness? Are they talking refs out of or into touches?

[Philistine]

{snip}
is it usual for .. very aggressive, fast and argumentative people to dominate tournaments at the low level?

Your profile says sabre--so, generally yes. At least fast and agressive. Both very good qualities in sabre.

Does it happen at every level?

To an extent. Fast and agressive will generally beat slow and passive, all other things being equal.

Have I missed something and is fencing about this? Perhaps I'm just a sore loser ( ) but I'm just beginning to get that feeling that either I'm becoming much worse as time goes on or that I'm being repeatedly beaten by people I consider, arrogantly, to not be that.. good?

Take heart. As you continue on, you will likely find that those who try to get by on only being fast and agressive stop progressing. Although it's a bit counter-intuitive, there's often a period of losing out to worse fencers as you're beginning to really understand fencing. This is because you're unlearning the bad habits and learning proper actions--but you haven't got them totally down yet, so you're slower and less acomplished with them then sloppy fencers might be with their "bad" actions, and you lose points to them. It does get better.

That being said. You shouldn't give up on being fast and agressive, as well as skilled. Being argumentative will come naturally as you continue fencing.....

--Philistine

[The Fish]

Argumentativeness generally manifests itself as rule quibbling - especially when we bout "refereeing ourselves" (gah). Of course speed and aggressiveness are part of fencing, I agree, but they shouldn't make up for lack of conditioned skill... should they?

Thanks, I'll keep grinding out the practice

[Bryn Ralph]

Ah, youth and narcissism! An elegant combination. But will it play well on the piste?

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Try epee.

[KD5MDK]

Rule quibbling tends to get quashed when there a competent referees present.

[Dax]

Try epee.

well said, I think thats the best advise here.

[Craig]

well said, I think thats the best advise here.

freaks. utter freaks.

[Dax]

Lol, you know in your heart that its true, Craig.

[fatfencer]

freaks. utter freaks.

Mayhaps Craig is a FOIL fencer? Hope so.

FF

[mrbiggs]

I've had this before and so I'm not worried about becoming disillusioned with fencing and leaving etc. - in fact I'm quite determined to become a very good fencer, which I think I can do with time and training. I'm 15 now and fencing with others my age and I'm just wondering - is it usual for .. very aggressive, fast and argumentative people to dominate tournaments at the low level? Does it happen at every level? Have I missed something and is fencing about this? Perhaps I'm just a sore loser ( ) but I'm just beginning to get that feeling that either I'm becoming much worse as time goes on or that I'm being repeatedly beaten by people I consider, arrogantly, to not be that.. good?

It happens at the low level, yes. (I'm about at that level.) Best way to beat them is to figure out who in your club fences the most like that and fence them all the time. Or just keep practicing and improving until you can beat the fast and agressive people anyway.

Also, sabre is really fast and agressive at every level.

[erooMynohtnA]

I think Philistine described the issue pretty well, but I'll add my two cents.

I remember when I was just beginning, and there was a kid was just really fast. He had no technique, no coordination, no strategy, just speed. At first he'd beat me every time we fenced, but after some amount of training (a year), he couldn't even get a point.

There are also technical flaws that work well against poor fencers but absolutely destroy you against better fencers. My girlfriend pulls her arm back with every attack (foil), and she manages to beat people rather soundly if they have fenced for a year or less. They just don't have the skills necessary to beat her. However, against anyone slightly better than that, she gets killed. (In my two DEs with her, I've gone 15-3, and 15-1 with [and I was going a little easy on her]). That's one reason that some coaches discourage competition below a certain level.

Obviously, speed is an advantage, but it's not the only advantage you can have. Just like fitness, tactics, technique, strength, and anything else you can imagine, it's only a part of the game. Speed is a by-product of skill. It's no coincidence that more experienced people are often able to complete actions much faster than less experienced people. You can usually do a correct action faster, but it's really hard to do a fast action more correctly. I think it was best put forward by a gentleman I was training with from Special Forces: "Slow is smooth, smooth is fast. Glide across the desert." Clearly, the latter doesn't apply to you, but what he meant was that you shouldn't emphasize speed over technique, because it comes with doing what you're doing properly, whatever it is.

[RebelFencer]

freaks. utter freaks.

You know you love us epeeists, don't try and hide it!