Mixed gender events: good or bad?

[erooMynohtnA]

This poll is pretty straighforward, do you think women and men should fence eachother in competition?

Is variety the spice of life? Is there a skill disparity that makes mixed gender events useless? Is everything fine as it is?

[seak]

I voted yes but only at low level competitions. Though in reality I mean yes at any non NAC and above event.

[Philistine]

I voted yes but only at low level competitions. Though in reality I mean yes at any non NAC and above event.

Ditto.

--Philistine

[Peach]

Yeah, "low-level" doesn't do it for me. Selfish take on this: I don't mind doing mixed events if the results don't matter for national points/team selection etc., and as long as women can earn classifications for national events for purposes of seeding and qualification in national events.

Though I like to have single-sex events at the local level because my real (read, national-level) opponents are female and I need meaningful practice.

[Ordway]

I said yes, but only at low-level events, which for means "local division events." At the sectional circuit events I really like to see them split into men's / women's (and of course NACs and above I think should be split).

Though I also like to see split events at the local level; I just wouldn't want them to always be split at this level because it would dramatically reduce the competitive pool and make it much harder to get good competitive experience.

Like Delia says, my real opponents are other women. Competing against men is great when it gives me a chance to fence other good fencers (independent of gender) but if I have the option of an equally high-quality tournament that has a women's event, I'll definitely prefer that.

[erooMynohtnA]

I voted yes but only at low level competitions. Though in reality I mean yes at any non NAC and above event.

Fair enough, I didn't think of high level non-NAC events when I was making the poll. Seems pretty obvious in hindsight.

[erooMynohtnA]

Yeah, "low-level" doesn't do it for me. Selfish take on this: I don't mind doing mixed events if the results don't matter for national points/team selection etc., and as long as women can earn classifications for national events for purposes of seeding and qualification in national events.

Though I like to have single-sex events at the local level because my real (read, national-level) opponents are female and I need meaningful practice.

I suppose that's the real question I wanted to ask, is there a difference in style or skill that makes it that different to fence men rather than women?

What specific differences are there between fencing men and fencing women for you?

[Peach]

I suppose that's the real question I wanted to ask, is there a difference in style or skill that makes it that different to fence men rather than women?

What specific differences are there between fencing men and fencing women for you?

Lots

In sabre, at the moment: Women's actions are smaller, less theatrical, more economical. The distance is different. The game tends to be much more designed to set up the attack-counter-attack rather than to make stylish parries. One of the reasons male sabre fencers don't enjoy watching women fence sabre is they think there isn't much going on, and when I watch videotape of my bouts I can see why they don't see it--but believe me, it's going on.

[mrbiggs]

I only like mixed events in two circumstances.

1. For fun. (A really casual event.)

2. If it significantly increases the quality or rating of the tournament.

I don't understand regions of the country where the norm is a Mixed and Women's only pair of events independant of amount of people or classifications. This is not done at any other level or, for that matter, any other sport I can think of.

[Peach]

Huh--I've seen such things at other types of sporting events, though in road races, since you all run together, you don't notice that there are actually two different events--a mixed and a women's. Or three--a mixed, a women's, and a master's. Or four or more if you count kids, age categories, and wheelchair racers.

[mrbiggs]

Huh--I've seen such things at other types of sporting events, though in road races, since you all run together, you don't notice that there are actually two different events--a mixed and a women's. Or three--a mixed, a women's, and a master's. Or four or more if you count kids, age categories, and wheelchair racers.

Casual road races don't count...

I'm not familiar with track, but I strongly suspect that events are not mixed at a higher level.

[Peach]

Casual road races don't count...

I'm talking about marathons--they aren't exactly casual.

[mrbiggs]

I'm talking about marathons--they aren't exactly casual.

Marathons are actually one of the only sporting events wherein men and women are at an approximately equal level. (I think women have a slight advantage, actually.)

[Montoya]

[
I don't understand regions of the country where the norm is a Mixed and Women's only pair of events independant of amount of people or classifications. This is not done at any other level or, for that matter, any other sport I can think of.[/QUOTE]

Here's the rationale, at least as I see it.

1. Resources of time, space, and referees. It's hard work to put on a tournament weekend that would allow men's, women's, and mixed events. In my division, most of our average weekend tournaments are mixed - no separate women's.

2. Rationale for mixed events - fewer women. Numbers for women's tournaments are often very small. Do I want to drive a few hours to fence a tournament with less than 15? Should I spend $20 to fence this small group, when for the same $20 the men get a larger field and more opportunities to fence?

3. Rationale for offering women's only events - some women (usually younger teenaged girls without much fencing experience) are too intimidated by men to start off in the mixed events. It's hard for a 13 year old neophyte fencer to find herself in a tournament with a large number of A-rated men (and I fence epee, so they're usually 6 feet plus).

For my part, I enjoy fencing men a great deal, and have been doing respectably well in mixed tournaments. In general, I manage to finish at least as well or better than my initial seed. My rating was first earned in a women's competition, but I've since re-earned it several times in mixed (predominately male) tournaments.

Do you feel that fencing women in mixed tournaments somehow dilutes your competitive experience as a male? If so, do you object to the participation of the inevitable passel of 14 year old U's who are XY?

[mrbiggs]

1. Resources of time, space, and referees. It's hard work to put on a tournament weekend that would allow men's, women's, and mixed events. In my division, most of our average weekend tournaments are mixed - no separate women's.

Just men's an women's, I'm saying.

2. Rationale for mixed events - fewer women. Numbers for women's tournaments are often very small. Do I want to drive a few hours to fence a tournament with less than 15? Should I spend $20 to fence this small group, when for the same $20 the men get a larger field and more opportunities to fence?

I said that that's a fine exception, in my opinion. But I don't think that large events have a reason to be mixed.

3. Rationale for offering women's only events - some women (usually younger teenaged girls without much fencing experience) are too intimidated by men to start off in the mixed events. It's hard for a 13 year old neophyte fencer to find herself in a tournament with a large number of A-rated men (and I fence epee, so they're usually 6 feet plus).

Yeah, I don't disagree with women's only events.

For my part, I enjoy fencing men a great deal, and have been doing respectably well in mixed tournaments. In general, I manage to finish at least as well or better than my initial seed. My rating was first earned in a women's competition, but I've since re-earned it several times in mixed (predominately male) tournaments.

Good job. I enjoy fencing women as well, but I do it at the club all the time, and at the occaisional mixed tournament. I don't think it should be the norm at every tournament.

Do you feel that fencing women in mixed tournaments somehow dilutes your competitive experience as a male? If so, do you object to the participation of the inevitable passel of 14 year old U's who are XY?

No, it just enlarges events for no reason, inflates ratings, and is unfair to men. I don't object to Y14 Us, but I'd rather them not fence in my event if they had their own event.

[Montoya]

Unfair how? Unfair because you might be beaten by a woman? I thought that enlarging events was a good thing, and if your fencing.net profile is up-to-date, my epee rating (sorry, don't fence foil) is higher than yours. And the last two times I earned it was in mixed competition. Doesn't enlarging a competition with an experienced female fencer with a decent rating improve the competititive experience? In our division, most of the women who come out for mixed competitions are experienced and have decent ratings. They're not at the top of the group, but they're also not at the bottom (lots of excitable adolescent male U's).



No, it just enlarges events for no reason, inflates ratings, and is unfair to men. I don't object to Y14 Us, but I'd rather them not fence in my event if they had their own event.[/QUOTE]

[seak]

Actually even for large events there tends to be a significant difference between the men's and women's events. The large events in this area (in foil and sabre) tend to be A3/A4 tournaments the womens events by and large are maybe B level and are lucky to get 25 fencers.

This is a huge difference between the events (for Cherry Blossom we are working on this but there aren't a lot of women's sabre A's out there).

As the event would prob be the same level with or without the womens fencers it doesn't inflate ratings at all, in fact it makes them harder to earn becuase you have to go through more good fencers

[Mr Epee]

No... and especially not at low level events...

Take it from someone who has logged more than 100 training bouts with women ranked top 10 in the world and above... and lost only 3-4 of those bouts.

The games are different.
One is not better than the other.
They are simply different.

Night and Day.

The sooner women can learn to fence women - the better.

No reason to get knocked around by people who smack them around because they are bigger, stronger and fence differently... that's just a big waste of time, because it's not fencing.

Take a look at a franchise like Curves. The "normal" woman is much more comfortable participating in physical activity with other women. Accepting this will allow the sport to grow in a more natural fashion.

[LUDICROUS]

Mr Epee, who ARE you ?

Kolobkov ?

[mrbiggs]

Unfair how? Unfair because you might be beaten by a woman?

No. Calm down. It's unfair because women get to fence two events to a man's one. It's not really something I care about, but it is an argument against mixed events, so I'd cite it. And of course I might be beaten by a woman, or a man, especially at my level. It's really entirely beside the point, though I don't doubt that someone will bring it up over and over through the discussion.

I thought that enlarging events was a good thing, and if your fencing.net profile is up-to-date, my epee rating (sorry, don't fence foil) is higher than yours.

First off, use sentences correctly. Enlarging events is sometimes a good thing. If there are 9 men's and 9 women's fencers, go ahead and mix it. If there are 31 men's and 24 women's fencers, I don't see a reason. I don't see the relevance of your rating. As I said, good for you.

Doesn't enlarging a competition with an experienced female fencer with a decent rating improve the competititive experience? In our division, most of the women who come out for mixed competitions are experienced and have decent ratings. They're not at the top of the group, but they're also not at the bottom (lots of excitable adolescent male U's).

Sometimes. They could also enlarge the competitive experience in their own gender, though. I don't see the advantage over a very large mixed A2 and a women's A2 versus a men's and women's of each.