So you wanna have a war?!

[attila]

What would you do? I read that a battle group is steaming from Japan towards the Indian Ocean. Sound like we are going to get close enough to make Afghanistan blink. We need the permission of somebodies airspace in order to bomb Afghanistan with any degree of accuracy. I don't see the russians helping out here much--they have too many of their own citizens who are muslim. Iran will not-- against Islam to help the infidel kill other muslims. The former Soviet Central Asian republics are also muslim and too darn close to afghanistan to make a neighbor mad. Pakistan might I have heard they are willing to allow an overflight as long as they take no part in ground force attacks or occupation. Might take a little less than a week for the US to have the system in place to really start a shooting war. Bummer about the Afghany people. It has been 21 years of **** in a row for them. No relif in sight either.
I don't think we will be able to get Bin Laden alive. If we get close. he will probably kill himself. Becoming a martyr will probably be better than the humiliation of a trial. If we are diligent we probably will slow down the terrorists some. Though I doubt we can win something like this. Way too many guys out there like that. Sad but true....

[Cyranox11]

Hi
I dont think this is the way to go about things. Yes, it is a war but it is NOT a conventional war, it vant be won by bombing and shooting masses of supposed enemies, that will only exacerbate matters, it needs to be waged on a much smaller scale, with teams of specialists going in and capturing or killing select targets (eg Bin Laden and his Lieutenants), then doing something about the conditions that forment terrorism. Waging a convetional war in Afghanistan (even with the co-operation of he neighbours) will only result in many thousand more deaths (especially of American soldiers, I reckon about 5 to 10 times as many as died in the WTC) and it would be political suicide for the likes of Bush!
Nor will placing armed guards on planes work, increased security at airports, proper policing and intelligence is required.
Oh and NEVER EVER think that persecuting an ethnic grup will help, that will be a disaster and is REALLY scary. Seeing the outpouring of nationalism on TV, and remarks by some Americans that maybe efforts need to be stepped up to monitor Americans of Middle Eastern descent is even more scary than the bombings the repercussions would be immense and in my opinion would create a state of affairs not unlike Nazi Germany in the 1930s.
Please dont do it.
Please America remain sane!
The reason you were attacked is that you are despite many faults a bastion for democracy and freedom dont lose that in your response to the attrocity if you do then those who attacked have won amd you have lost before you start.

[DamedEscrime]

Deep down I have to believe that no one here wants to go to war. If we do I am sure it will be like none other. The United States has been fortunate in previous wars in that no battles were fought on our soil. With modern technology that will in all likelyhood not be so if we go to war now. Are we prepared to defend our own back yards? And how can we do that? In all probability it won't be foot soldiers we would be defending from. Think about this carefully. War is not the gloriuos romantic event that people would like it to be. Bottom line, people die, not just soldiers, but the innocent ones that are drug into it by their leaders.
Afganistanies are now fleeing their cities in preparation. They fear us. Bin Laden has terrorized his own people. Do you think the average Afgany citizen wants war? No, they are victims of Bin Laden too. I am sure that like us, they would preferr to live out their daily lives going about their normal business.

Ok, now you may shoot me.

[sabreuse]

Originally posted by Cyranox11:
<STRONG>
Oh and NEVER EVER think that persecuting an ethnic grup will help, that will be a disaster and is REALLY scary. Seeing the outpouring of nationalism on TV, and remarks by some Americans that maybe efforts need to be stepped up to monitor Americans of Middle Eastern descent is even more scary than the bombings the repercussions would be immense and in my opinion would create a state of affairs not unlike Nazi Germany in the 1930s.
Please dont do it.
Please America remain sane!
The reason you were attacked is that you are despite many faults a bastion for democracy and freedom dont lose that in your response to the attrocity if you do then those who attacked have won amd you have lost before you start.</STRONG>

Thanks, Cyranox11. My sentiments exactly!

[Swordsman]

I bite my tongue...

[Pessina]

Let us not rush headlong into a bloodbath. The desire for justice (and revenge) is completely understandable, but we have to limit this to getting the guilty i.e those that planned and carried out the atrocity. Nothing good will come of attacking Afghanistan, it could very easily spark off a civil war in Pakistan for one thing, and ask the Russians (and historians) before thinking about sending troops in.
Wider issues are involved, which do need to be faced up to, firstly Palestine. If we want to get the terrorists, first we must isolate them. Having had friends from Irak and Pakistan, I can see them only as fellow human beings, and the sense of shared sadness that we have felt (and me personally) in England at the attacks in America, I will also feel if or when the bombs start going off in Islamabad or Kabul. Although public opinion (certainly on this side of the Atlantic)is calling out for military strikes, I cannot see how this will stop the organisation responsible. Bin Laden is a symbol, and this is not a case of "kill the head and the body will die".

[Zelda]

Well said Pessina.

[Inquartata]

DamedEscrime---You are right, of course, but alas, there are times when war is the most palatable of a lot of ugly options.

And I too feel for the general Afghani populace. They are by far the majority, and are going to be made to suffer for the deeds of the radical minority, in all likelihood. I hope we try to minimize this. Drop leaflets beseeching them to move to areas controlled by the Northern Alliance, perhaps, and wait it out; broadcasts making it clear that our quarrel is with their wild-eyed and in many ways very non-Muslim government and the creatures it harbours.

[ 09-19-2001: Message edited by: Inquartata ]

[Swordsman]

I agree. We just must be sure that we don't get so preoccupied with protecting civilians that we don't hurt the militants.

[swordsen]

As to if we will fight a war or not, that question was answered several years ago by Bin Laden himself. Unfortunetly so far he has really been the only one fighting except for a few sporadic spasms with cruise missles that accomplished very little. There is a war on, there will be a few spectacular press events with bombers and cruise missles but the majority of this war will be fought by Military Counter Intel teams overseas, the FBI at home and a bunch of highly trained Special Operation soldiers whose names and actions will never see the light of day. alot of people are going to die and many of them will be "innocent civilians" ours and others. (not theirs because terrorists have no civilians) It will be long, brutal and dirty but it is winnable if we go at it the right way.
and I for one hope we go at it hammer and tongs untill the issue is a dead one.

oh yes, please spare me from the "Palestinian Issue" Bin Laden and his ilk use them just like they use the Afghanistanis, grist for his mill.

[erewhon]

Everyone becomes a foreign policy expert at times like these, but perhaps the real problem lies a little closer to home?

Such as, how to prevent disaffected young Muslims falling under the sway of zealots in the first place?

[Moonitic]

Let's just have a pillow fight instead.

Other cruel ways to kill someone:

1. Infomercials
2. Barney or the Teletubbies
3. Reality tv
4. Any combination of the above

For the fencing crowd:

1. Equipment that works one minute, fails the next...but the moment you try to see what is wrong with it OFF the strip, it works fine. That is AFTER you get several cards for faulty equipment.

2. The long wait for the competition to start

For the Men:
1. An emotional woman bombarding them with questions that really have no right answer...only wrong.
2. Three words: Mothers-in-law.
3. A pregnant woman with obscure cravings at 3am.
4. A teenage daughter.

For the Women (equal opportunity torture, you know):

1. "No chocolate"
2. Three words: Mothers-in-law
3. Switch her jeans when she isn't wearing them. Keep making them smaller. Make sure the tag says her actual size each time.


These are sure to drive anyone to their deaths. Feel free to add more.

[Inquartata]

Moon, do you believe in reincarnation? I'm thinking that Torquemada lives again!

( "No one expects the Spanish Inquisition!" )

[Moonitic]

Who? Moi? Whatever do you mean?

[Zelda]

Now we will just torture with a nice comfy cushion....one is not enough? We must give you more!

[lochinvar]

It appears to me that we might be barking up the wrong tree.

What we are facing here is not, I think, something that will yield easily to bombs and bullets. This is a war of IDEOLOGY, and we all know how difficult it is to kill an idea.

The bombers and hijackers are not the principle agents, but are instead merely weapons. They are weapons in service to an idea.

If someone is determined to harm you, you cannot prevent it by taking away his gun; he will find a knife, or a hammer, or even a rock. Removing the weapons will not solve the problem.

I give limited support to the idea of striking at the symptoms until we can deal with the cause, but I think our efforts will be doomed to frustration if the symptom is all we attack. We have to find some way of combatting the concept of Holy War itself. Otherwise, fanaticism will simply turn out to be the Hydra, growing other heads as we chop them off.

And that is something that I have no clue at the moment how to do. And I fear our leaders and pundits have no more ideas on it than I do.

[Sildar]

Iochinvar,
I have to agree.
I read a Time magazine article last year about the Falun Gong crackdowns in China; how the government there was persecuting the religious movement based on vague claims that they were all part of some anti-government cult. The writer made some comments, accurate I think, about the fact that Falun Gong didn't appear to have any political goals until the Chinese government started attacking them. I don't remember his exact words, but he said something like 'the definition of paranoia is when you see enemies that aren't there, and thus you make enemies out of the people who you start treating as such.'
It seems like the same sort of thing is going to happen with the current situation. I have to say that I don't think that Afghanistan is behaving differently than any country would in the same situation. Would the US hand over a wealthy resident to be tried by a foreign power which has already decided he was guilty WITHOUT ANY HARD EVIDENCE that they care to share with us? In that sense, at least, Afghanistan is acting far more reasonable than the US government at the moment.
In an article I just read, one US official was recently asked what evidence they have against bin Laden, and he flatly refused to answer. This seems bizarre to me at least. Yes, I understand you don't want to reveal too much when you're fighting an intelligence war, but come on, shouldn't we give them a little more reason to hand him over than "Because we said to," if it might mean averting war? Especially considering that a massive invasion is more likely to inspire more people to despise the US? The terrorists who survive will point to every ugly action the American forces commited during the fighting and say "See, we were right, they are the bad guys!" And thousands more will believe them, and their jihad will seem perfectly justified to many who didn't have a major hatred for us before.
Don't get me wrong, I have no love for the Taliban and would be quite happy to see them replaced by a more democratic government with more regard for its own people. I do not think that their actions are justified in most cases. However, I think it would improve the situation greatly if the US adhered a bit more to international law rather than just throwing our weight around and threatening anyone who disobeys us with eradication, thereby giving more credence to the image of the US as a despotic lawless oppressor of poor countries in the minds of young middle eastern people. Unfortunately, president has already drawn his line in the dirt and it's a bit late to back down...

[Inquartata]

No, lochinvar. I don't think we are. In fact, my fear is that we'll only go after them with half-measures, like we usually do.

If you kill enough of those who hold the ideology, the ideology withers. And the remaining few to whom the ideology seems attractive may be deterred, if not by the prospect of their own deaths, then by what they may bring upon their friends and the countries who support them. At the very least, they will have to go about their insidious business looking over their shoulders...not for the long arm of the ( Western ) law, which they scorn, but for the bullet in the night. Oderint dum metuant.


And I do not believe that the leaders of these terrorist groups are merely weapons in service to an idea, but rather the other way around: the idea is a weapon in service to the men controlling the groups. It's an attractive weapon to ignorant, gullible young men who seethe with inchoate rage and despair about their own personal circumstances. And it may be that we need to address those circumstances, to see what can be done to make them better so that the rage and despair are ameliorated and they can better resist the lure of "martyrdom" that the Bin Ladens offer them. But that will not stop the violence altogether: for the leaders will merely find other methods of persuading others to do their deadly bidding as they themselves remain safe and comfortable in their lairs.

It would be best if the hydra's heads could be removed, but failing that the entire hydra must be burned or buried....

[sabreuse]

This is likely an unpopular theory that will never be supported but here goes.

I think we should address this situation like a law enforcement issue. Investigate and track down the actual people responsible, including those that directed and directly condoned the actions; sort of like a RICO investigation of organized crime. Allow due process of law, etc. and punish the wrong-doers under our system of justice and our constitution. We need to set a good example here. If we send in an assasination squad and take out bin Ladin there is no way we could ever credibly censure any other country for assasinating one of our political figures. If we bomb Afghanistan and make life more miserable for its citizens, all we'll do is galvanize them against us. That may even serve to extend the political life of the Taliban and the terrorist organizations.

The Soviet Union and Communism didn't collapse because we went in and bombed the dog-**** out of them. They collapsed under their own weight because they were systems of government that were not sustainable. Russia is now more-or-less one of our allies. If the Taliban is really a bad government, eventually it will collapse. I don't think we can force the process. It will take time--maybe 20 or 30 years. We can't be so arrogant as to insist that another group of people have the government WE want them to have. They have to choose their own. In the meantime, what we can do is protect ourselves as best we can. That means continuing intelligence gathering and putting reasonable security measures in place without compromising our citizens' and foreign guests' basic constitutional rights.

Edew makes a good point about keeping this situation, even though it was horrendous, in perspective. I know the country is demanding Justice but I think larger issues are at stake.

[attila]

LIBERAL ALERT!!!!

Sabereuse is one of those dang true libertarians -- so how come you are never at the meetings?!

I fully agree with you, exept for the " we can't be so arrogant" bit. We are. We have been. And we are at it again