So you wanna have a war?!

[Stryder]

Of course it would serve everyone better if Bin Laden were captured and subjected to a long boring public trial in the US that ended with him and any other perpetrators on the warm end of a lethal injection.

It would even make the angry red necks happy because he would be humiliated rather than martyred.

The issue is not what to do when we catch him, but how we catch him. (And all who assisted him.)

Military action with the sole purpose of revenge is far from the minds of anyone with the power to do so. Military action is being readied simply to defeat the military force protecting him from apprehension.

[sabreuse]

I actually agree with you, Mike, and I hope you're right about George W's military intentions. It gets hard to get a feel for what those intentions actually are. The White House's press releases are long on rhetoric and short on specifics. Most of the reporters are constantly asking when U.S. troops will be sent into Afghanistan. The media almost seem to be pushing for that. I guess it's easier to report on a big visible war-type activity than on painstaking investigation. I hope cool heads are prevailing wherever these decisions are being made.

My magic-wand scenario would be, if the investigation leads to bin Ladin and other people in another country, that country would voluntarily hand the guilty over to the U.S. for trial. If the country refuses, things get a little trickier. I'm uncomfortable with the idea of snatching anyone out of another country for the reasons stated above. It's analogous to spanking a child to teach him that hitting is bad. I would prefer to use economic sanctions and global ostracism (more like a time out or being grounded, to continue the parenting analogy). It demonstrates that there are consequences for bad behavior but
doesn't cause us to sink to a lower moral level. The downside is it doesn't provide the quick fix that a lot of people seem to want. However, long-term (maybe really long-term), this approach has produced good results (the ending of apartheid in South Africa is an example).

[ 09-22-2001: Message edited by: sabreuse ]

[attila]

Just a thought. I was rather pleasently surprised by the reply of the Head of the Taliban when Dubya asked for them to hand over Osama bin. They asked for proof of his guilt. Beauty! Because this whole thing is really a CRIME. If The perpetrators were on US soil we would have to go by OUR numbers,no? Search warrants, due process, not guilty until,etc. Why are we not going through the world court? Declare the bastard a fugitive ,then go after him and those who harbor,etc. Just the liberal in me thinking outloud..

[Stryder]

Sabreuse-

I don't think the 'cold war waiting game' would work in this case because we have no country to ostracise. No ports to block and no trade to interrupt. The only seige-like actions that will ahve any effect is freezing or outright seizing bin Laden's $$$$
(Which we should have done 8 years ago!!)

Bin Laden is "Officially" an outcast fugitive in Afganistan. The Taliban seems to be acting like a politically sympathetic but unconnected party.

Would it be permissible to use military force or political pressure against a government that couldn't find bin Laden, but didn't want our help doing so? Ever hear of the Black Hand?

By the way, Powell's notice today said he would be laying the US's case aginst bin Laden out for all to see. "His guilt should be obvious to everyone." were his words.
Smart move, I think. The more he seems like a petty criminal the less his inevitable death will feel like martyrdom to his followers.

[DamedEscrime]

Stryder, I think that anything Colen Powell has to say about Bin Laden will be construed as Yankee Propaganda by his followers. However it will justification to the American people.

[its_me_mango]

i can't believe you'd insult powell like that, he's really one of my favorites, and i really wanted him as president, but they weren't ready for him, so i kept chanting for him to get something big, now, more stuff: the japanese people have, in the past 3-4 days, here in hawaii, shown a great deal of support, they're wearing red/white/blue and they're starting to come back to hawaii at their own risk, i don't expect them to drop their money here, not too much, it's really being too much, i'm hoping to get the people who've lost their positions into other areas/health care/dental assistant/LPN's etc, most of those educational programs are 8 months to a year and they can get unemployment insurance as they continue through school, it's the best thing i can think of at the moment, until things stabilize

[Inquartata]

sabreuse, the Soviet Union didn't collapse because of its political system. That was actually working quite well for them---totalitarianism is much easier to maintain than democracy. It collapsed because of its ponderous, unwieldy economic system. Eventually they just couldn't afford to keep going as they were, because the economic predictions of Marx and Lenin proved to be wrong. Ludicrously wrong.

I don't quite know how to treat this affair. Not as a war, for that would mean Geneva Accord protections for the creatures. Not as a crime, for that means lawyers ( and to involve lawyers in anything is to see the dictum that "Delay is the deadliest form of denial" proven in the real world )....

[Inquartata]

Originally posted by sabreuse:
<STRONG> I would prefer to use economic sanctions and global ostracism (more like a time out or being grounded, to continue the parenting analogy). It demonstrates that there are consequences for bad behavior but
doesn't cause us to sink to a lower moral level. The downside is it doesn't provide the quick fix that a lot of people seem to want. However, long-term (maybe really long-term), this approach has produced good results (the ending of apartheid in South Africa is an example).</STRONG>

On the other hand, it hasn't worked on Cuba in going on...what? Forty years?

And I'm afraid of what a country like Iraq may be able to accomplish in the way of mass killings of innocents while we twiddle our thumbs waiting for sanctions to wear the Baath Party down.

In fact, if this sort of thing really worked, there'd be no need for war at all. Some problems just require a "quick fix". You can't wait for the tide to go out if you're drowning, after all.

[ 09-22-2001: Message edited by: sabreuse ][/QB]

[sabreuse]

I agree that there are no easy answers.

[DamedEscrime]

Mango, Exactly who insulted Powell? If you are referring to my last comment,that was not an insult to him, rather commentary on the obvious. No matter what any politcal leader says, the majority of his own people will agree with him while the enemy does not, considering it to be propaganda.

[thebigriddle]

Well, I general don't make politic comments, but I am know to at my club, just not on a public forum. The truth of the matter is Bin Laden attacked our economic center. It is tragic. Now you have to ask why? Bin Laden was CIA operative, when Bush, Sr was head of the CIA. He is one of our creations. Part of the problem is that America get involved overseas when it really shouldn't. It was not our founding forefathers original intent of doing so. We are moving into an area, which the US is not like by anyone. We have new and old enemies. I also have talk with Arabs here and they said we don't like the US push our ideas down their throat. Those countries in the middle east, we have no legal authority. They are seperate and sovereign nations. We interfer with their government and state processes which cause strife. Bombing them and attacking them I would not say is the right idea. This will only cause an ascalation. You are dealing with very intelligent people. I have been following this since the beginning. I believe it is in part our own fault, most Americans are ignorant of our own governmental processes and choose not to part take in them. I choose to be a part of this. I study the origin ideals of our founding forefathers, because they had fore sight to see the problems, because they had study governments during the time they were drafting our constitution as well as fight in the revolutions. Oh, by the way Sam Adams, was a militant to the British government. He was the cousin to John Adam. He was also a leader in the revolution. Most people do not realise we are not very well like by the rest of the world. How does the US stay number one, well, it is not for being a nice guy all of the time. We do some nice things, somethings I believe we should keep our noses out of. Also don't always believe what our news papers write, even if it is foreign affairs. Remember in any conflict there will be wins and there will be losers. Someone is making money from this. I also for a personal note, I am in the reserves and my unit is on the list. So yes, I have an interest. If you want information without a spin. Goto www.worldnetdaily, www.infowars.com, listen to Alex Jones, read some of the articles from www.constitution.org and www.keepandbeararms.org God bless the US and long live the Republic. Remember it is everones job to protect and defend our nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. And protect our most sacred documents the US constitution and the Bill of right. Do not tread on me, Liberty or Death.