Pitfalls of mixed fencing: should girls and boys fence each other?

[Philistine]

Originally Posted by southernsword

This URL is a good read if you want to have an "informed opinion" about the risks of mixed sporting events. {snip}
http://www.caringmedical.com/sports_...d_hormones.asp

I must be missing something.

That URL seems to have no information about the risks of mixed sporting events. Did you mistype it? It suggests a (medical) reason why female athletes may be more prone to certain types of injury than male athletes, but says nothing whatsoever about the wisdom of mixed competitions.

--Philistine

[erooMynohtnA]

Originally Posted by southernsword

Like I said Anthony, if you want an "informed opinion", which you obviously don't want. So why don't you campaign for mixed Summer Nationals, the USFA could not be so backward and ignorant to suppose that 170 lb. male 18 year old is a risk to a 170 lb. 18 year old female, because all her enthusiasm makes up for the fact he has more muscle than she does. Muscle translates to velocity of blade travel and whip power, explosiveness of leg power and ability to endure. Not to mention the larger Vital Capacity of the Male including greater lung volume, cardiac output and blood volume. IF they impale each other he will win because she will drain out 1/2 a minute before he runs out of blood volume! Wow...what equality to be grasped.

Anyone can get something published on the internet. I'd like you to read an article I wrote myself: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...ssertation.jpg It establishes both the equality of genders in fencing and the primacy of foil as the champagne of weapons.

I have been in situations during which people have bled to death and have been bleeding and not died. While it is interesting and I didn't know it, a half minute of blood wasn't the deciding factor in any of them. And, in that situation that someone dies fencing, no one could be called the winner.

Who is saying that a 170 lb male necessarily has more muscle than a 170 lb female? What if the male is 5'2" and the female is 6'3" in that situation? I'm not arguing that men have less lean body mass on average. I just don't care because it doesn't matter. Someone could clone a superhuman nueter neither male nor female twice as tall with three times the lean body mass I have, and I'd still fence them.

[Peach]

At the Pomme de Terre this weekend I saw a fencer take a hit (in foil) that caused her to bleed through her jacket arm. Another foil fencer took her second full-force VERY accurate, er, um, crotch-hit of the weekend yesterday. I (sabre fencer) have a lovely swollen pink-and blue bruise on my shoulder point, another on my elbow, and a number of stripes on my back. All in women-only competition

Fencing is a martial art of sorts, and though I complain and grumble when I'm hit unnecessarily hard, whether by males or females, the odds are good I'm GONNA get hit from time to time. Big deal.

[erooMynohtnA]

Originally Posted by Fencergrl

Okay…. This has deteriorated to the place where I am now starting to take bets now as to how soon this nonsense will be put to rest with Craig or Gav closing this thread….

Sorry, I was posting quickly and I got carried away. I forget to temper my abrasive nature with the sensibilities of others sometimes. I hope you weren't particularly taken aback by my post

[Fencergrl]

No problem. Nice to see this thread back on track again.

[dcmdale]

Originally Posted by southernsword

Like I said Anthony, if you want an "informed opinion", which you obviously don't want. So why don't you campaign for mixed Summer Nationals, the USFA could not be so backward and ignorant to suppose that 170 lb. male 18 year old is a risk to a 170 lb. 18 year old female, because all her enthusiasm makes up for the fact he has more muscle than she does. Muscle translates to velocity of blade travel and whip power, explosiveness of leg power and ability to endure. Not to mention the larger Vital Capacity of the Male including greater lung volume, cardiac output and blood volume. IF they impale each other he will win because she will drain out 1/2 a minute before he runs out of blood volume! Wow...what equality to be grasped.

If blade velocity, whip, leg strength, lung volume, and cardiac output were the sole basis for determining who won (and for the physical danger of participation) you might have a valid point. I have watched plenty of bouts between 18 year old males and females where the result is 5-0 for the female. I have also seen 18 year old females trashed by 80 year old females. Where are you accounting for skill in your equation?

[the reluctant fencer]

I'll be honest. When I fence a female fencer I do not fence wih all my strength as I would with a male fencer. 99% of the time I fence a female fencer they are not near as strong/skilled/advantaged as I am. Thus I will fence more relaxed and practice moves that I haven't used on a male fencer because I don't know if they will work. If I make a mistake fencing a male fencer I will probably get nailed or I will have retreated fast enough to escape from my mistake. From my experience with fencing female fencers I usually have every advantage. I think I have fenced only one female fencer that could out-power me. I do not lower my mental skill level and fence as a lower ranking level to fence a female but I just use my mental game, keeping in mind that they are usually a lesser fencer, and do not need to thrust them through with an epee just to score before they do. In fencing other males it is often necessary to use extra force to score on an opponet and at the same time make sure he is not in a position to score if my attack fails and I have time to escape. I have never fenced a female fencer that was my age, height, weight, strength, or skill level and probably never will because women are not genetically the same . Why is the attacking military made up of mostly men? men are physically stronger than women when comparing pound for pound. Sure, if the USA were comprised of small wimpy men and alpha-women then this issue is not true. The case is that if a 180 pound male and a female of the same size and characteristics are compared straight up then the male has more muscle per pound of his bodyweight than the female does. If females are perfectly equal with men then why is the military comprised of mostly men in the front lines of battle? does the US military just off a whim decide that men are better for war than women are? Fencing is the modern version of hand-to-hand war. Is there a similarity? The reasoning is that all military personell have to meet a certain requirement for strength and endurance. Most women don't have the strength and endurance to meet the standards that most of the men can meet to be a United States soldier.

[Bayou Bum]

Originally Posted by the reluctant fencer

If females are perfectly equal with men then why is the military comprised of mostly men in the front lines of battle? does the US military just off a whim decide that men are better for war than women are?

Because the US military is sexist and feels it is the manly thing to protect women. We are afraid that women soldiers might get raped if captured. It is okay for men to be bruatally tortured and beheaded but don't dare let anything happen to a woman. It has nothing to do with ability. History is filled with examples of entire divisions of women soldiers that have outperformed their male counterparts.

Fencing is the modern version of hand-to-hand war. Is there a similarity? The reasoning is that all military personell have to meet a certain requirement for strength and endurance. Most women don't have the strength and endurance to meet the standards that most of the men can meet to be a United States soldier.

Most men in the US don't have the strength and endurance to meet the standards to be a US soldier. Maybe that is why this country has so many fat people, so they will never be expected to serve in the military.

[the reluctant fencer]

What I am saying is that the male military admittance percentages are much higher than the female military admittances. I am not looking at the overall amout coming into the military. I am comparing the amount that started boot camp and those that completed boot camp. I wil go find accurate sources if you really don't believe me.

[erooMynohtnA]

Originally Posted by the reluctant fencer

I'll be honest. When I fence a female fencer I do not fence wih all my strength as I would with a male fencer. 99% of the time I fence a female fencer they are not near as strong/skilled/advantaged as I am. Thus I will fence more relaxed and practice moves that I haven't used on a male fencer because I don't know if they will work. If I make a mistake fencing a male fencer I will probably get nailed or I will have retreated fast enough to escape from my mistake. From my experience with fencing female fencers I usually have every advantage. I think I have fenced only one female fencer that could out-power me. I do not lower my mental skill level and fence as a lower ranking level to fence a female but I just use my mental game, keeping in mind that they are usually a lesser fencer, and do not need to thrust them through with an epee just to score before they do. In fencing other males it is often necessary to use extra force to score on an opponet and at the same time make sure he is not in a position to score if my attack fails and I have time to escape. I have never fenced a female fencer that was my age, height, weight, strength, or skill level and probably never will because women are not genetically fighters. Why is the attacking military made up of mostly men? men are physically stronger than women when comparing pound for pound. Sure, if the USA were comprised of small wimpy men and alpha-women then this issue is not true. The case is that if a 180 pound male and a female of the same size and characteristics are compared straight up then the male has more muscle per pound of his bodyweight than the female does. If females are perfectly equal with men then why is the military comprised of mostly men in the front lines of battle? does the US military just off a whim decide that men are better for war than women are? Fencing is the modern version of hand-to-hand war. Is there a similarity? The reasoning is that all military personell have to meet a certain requirement for strength and endurance. Most women don't have the strength and endurance to meet the standards that most of the men can meet to be a United States soldier.

I'm not sure I've fenced a woman who could benchpress more than I could. That being said, I'm sure I've fenced female fencers who could squat more and do more forearm curls than I could.

I'm going to have to say that fencing is distanced enough from battle to make the comparison between the two virtually useless.

Actually, the US military did just decide on a whim that women wouldn't be frontline troops. Women are allowed in non-ground-combat specialties, but not something like the infantry or artillery. No reason is really given for this, although many people have reasoned it on both sides of the argument. The Army actually has several different standards. They have a height/weight/body fat% that is different for men and women. They also have a test comprised of push ups, sit ups, and a two mile run. The minimum results vary by sex and age. I could fail my two mile run as a male, but a female (or older soldier) who placed right next to me would be in the middle to high range of scores. However, I've also maxed the score on my run and still had women blaze past me.

Long story short, there are different standards for women, men, young, and old, and each has no problem passing their own respective events so long as they're in fighting shape.

Also, I have met several women who are much better soldiers than I am in practically every way, including physically. There are females I know who have been in firefights, because we don't really have "front lines" in our primarily asymmetrical conflicts. I've been on a few forward attack bases that didn't allow females because they were combat posts, but they relented on that doctrine and allowed females, and it was only to the base's benefit.

You're saying men are naturally built to fight, and that gives us certain advantages in the areas of strength, speed, heat dissipation and so on, but I don't think that equates to a reason women shouldn't fence men whether due to injury or anything else. I've beaten more female fencers than have beaten me (Wisconsin doesn't seem to have quite as many seriously competitive female fencers), but I have been absolutely creamed by some.

[Bayou Bum]

Originally Posted by southernsword

I've seen fencers come to fist blows after bouts but still in the venue and no one stopped it, no one was carded, and it still is a vivid memory I can't seem to lose. As a person who has professional experience restraining out of control people, I am of the informed opinion that an ounce of prevention is worth a ton of cure.

If you are a professional at restraining out of control people, what were you doing? Were you too busy protecting your gonads instead of stopping it?

[the reluctant fencer]

I am not saying that all women are stronger or more capable than men in all cases. There are many fat lazy men that can't run. I am not saying that all men can make it into the military. I am just saying that out of the people that go to boot camp a much higher percentage of men make it through than women because of the physical strength superiority of men. Women also have their advantages. Better sense of balance, is one. In gymnasitcs you don't see many women doing the two hanging loops but then again you don't see too many men on the balance beam. Men and women are different and both have advantages and disadvantages. You just have to take that as a fact.

[Piranha]

I don't know what planet some of you men are on. I have been fencing with men since I started fencing 10+ years ago, and although men may be innately physically stronger, we all know that skill, speed, and clever tactics can overcome strength. I also don't know any men who hit lighter or fence differently when fencing a woman--if anything they fencer harder because of the silly stigma that exists in our society about losing to women.

Regarding wearing cups, if you don't wear one and your groin is target area, that's your problem. I sure would. You might also want to keep in mind that women might not be aiming there--they may just be significantly shorter than you, making their extension level about the level of your waist/groin.

[fencerchica]

Reluctant Fencer: I agree that the average male fencer typically possesses an athletic advantage over the average female fencer, one that only becomes magnified if both train to the fullest limit of their physical potential. That's why mixed Div 1 Nationals wouldn't be a FAIR competition (and NAC's, Sectionals, and Divisionals ultimately flow into Div 1 Nationals).

HOWEVER, you fail to make any adequate argument that it is not SAFE for men and women to compete together. Without such safety concerns, it makes perfect sense to have mixed gender local events available. This is beneficial for all sorts of reasons, such as larger field of competitors, more variety of styles, more opportunities for fencers to progress, etc., and there is no sensible reason that has been successfully posed or defended here, safety-based or otherwise, to prohibit them. If the average guy has an inherent athletic advantage, who cares? I'm still willing to take them on at the local level, and accept any such physical advantages on their part as an extra challenge for me to overcome.

[bigdawg2121]

HMMM...this is senseless. What is the connection between a woman's higher tendency toward muscle and connective tissue injury and the possible injuries women could sustain from being hit by a fencing weapon held by a man. I guess if the tournament goal is beating people with metal sticks(this is not fencing contrary to popular belief) I see your concern.

[the reluctant fencer]

One thing about people on this site. Why are there so many personal attacks? Why can't people just logically argue a point instead of attacking a person's individuality? It just shows immaturity and lack of being able to think logically.

[bigdawg2121]

In the interest of preserving brain cells how about a constructive threadjack...Considering the different styles encountered between men and women in fencing are mixed competitions a good idea from a training standpoint? Should one consider tapering off of mixed tournaments before major competitions?

[the reluctant fencer]

I am not arguing that it is not safe for there to be mixed events...yet.
If a fencer has to injure the opponet to feel like they acomplished something knowing they are going to lose then they are just bad people. They should not be fencing at all if they are proud (if that is true) of drawing blood. That is completely against the ethics of fencing.

Originally Posted by fencerchica

Reluctant Fencer: I agree that the average male fencer typically possesses an athletic advantage over the average female fencer, one that only becomes magnified if both train to the fullest limit of their physical potential. That's why mixed Div 1 Nationals wouldn't be a FAIR competition (and NAC's, Sectionals, and Divisionals ultimately flow into Div 1 Nationals).

HOWEVER, you fail to make any adequate argument that it is not SAFE for men and women to compete together. Without such safety concerns, it makes perfect sense to have mixed gender local events available. This is beneficial for all sorts of reasons, such as larger field of competitors, more variety of styles, more opportunities for fencers to progress, etc., and there is no sensible reason that has been successfully posed or defended here, safety-based or otherwise, to prohibit them. If the average guy has an inherent athletic advantage, who cares? I'm still willing to take them on at the local level, and accept any such physical advantages on their part as an extra challenge for me to overcome.

[Zasha]

Originally Posted by D+F+P=Hadouken!

There are just alot of girls in fencing who seem to get quite a kick out of stabbing male fencers twigs and berries.
Quit.
If you're gonna hit us there, you better well be willing to kiss it and make it better.

what if it's done out of retaliation? say a guy is being quite rude is practice, trying to shove his weapon up into an, ahem, area, not usually hit, not even in epee. is it wrong of her to go for a rude touch in response?